[Special Episode] The Mindstate Marketing Hour #17 with Will Leach - The ROI Online Podcast Ep. 83

Hey everybody, welcome to a special series of conversations sponsored by the ROI Online Podcast with Will Leach. He's the author of Marketing To Mindstates, the practical guide to applying behavior designed to research and marketing. And in these conversations, we're going to deep dive and explore all the insights from Will's book, as you learn how to use science to connect better with your clients. I'm Steve Brown, and here we go. Merry Christmas! Will Leach.

Steve, how are you today?

Excellent, brother. I'm so happy to see you. Do I look rosy? Do I look like I'm Santa Claus, rosy cheeks?

I thought yeah, just for a minute. I said, Well, who's my special guest interviewer here?You got the gray beard, but I'm sure it'll be grown out before you know before next week, but yeah, you look great, man. What are you even doing?

Um, I'm just getting ready for the milk and cookies tour. Yep.

Good for you.

You know Will, I just love having these conversations with you. Everybody, you need to know this man. This is The Mindstate Marketing Hour with Will Leach.

This guy.

That's right, he's got a book. This all started because I read a book. It's called Marketing To Mindstates by Will Leach, right? Here's the book, everybody hold up your book everybody that's watching. It's simplistically how to use science to connect with your clients. And what I read is like jacked up, I need to meet this guy. He's got a website, The Mindstate Group, go check it out there's some good stuff there. Will, now we've spent a lot of time talking about all a lot of things around your book and how to apply it. How the rubber meets the road. But guess what road I need to go down this week? Because I haven't done my shopping. Right? And I'm a guy. I'm a guy and shopping is stressful because I never know what to get people. Steve, this is what goes through my mind. Steve, you're going to be judged on the quality of your gift and the thoughtfulness in this gift. And I'm like going, Thoughtfulness? All I need is a few minutes to think about this, what's so hard about this? But it is hard. And I do feel insecure about it. And I'm never in a position of competence.

That's right. And I'm with you too. I was just telling a story that my issue is less about knowing what to buy. Well maybe it is in the background. It's about like since I don't know what to exactly buy I wait till the last second and then one time no lie, I found myself on Christmas Eve

30 at night In fact, and I had to go Christmas shopping for my family and so I went to the airport because that was the only place that was still open, I went to a gift shop at Palm Beach International Airport. And now it's like come on man we gotta do better than this man, we've gotta do better so we got like the Florida t-shirts and we lived in Florida you know so it was really bad, it was really bad. There's a lot of stress!

Well, so here's what you're going to learn, you never know what you're going to learn. But it's like, we're all losers at some point getting gifts.

That's right. But I'm here to make sure that you're not a loser. If you just follow a very easy process that I have learned over many, many bad Christmas gifts that I've given my wife and those looks that we all have gotten when we give the gift that they don't quite understand why they got it, or it was absolutely the wrong gift.

So if those of you that were enlightened enough to read this book, you're now in a position of confidence to do this because you already innately know that the first step in doing this is, what Will?

You first got to realize it is not just the gift, it is the meaning behind the gifts, so you better understand her aspirations. And what we've talked about this before, but I think actually Steve, but a good way to start off now would be to show that Peloton commercial that we're talking about because I want to talk less about the commercial but the impact that commercial had on a lot of guys out there. So if you got that thing teed up,

Yeah, let's see. So, what chapter do I need to read and do better with technology? Here we go. I'm going to share the screen. And where are we? Well, here we go. I think I've got this. Can you see that? So here comes mom with a daughter. Down the stairs. It's snowing outside. And what happens next? It's Christmas Day and look at the gifts on the table. The scene is set. Ready? Tell me if you can hear this

*Commercial*

So let me tell you a little bit about that commercial, now some of you guys may not know that commercial was very controversial last year because it rubbed people the wrong way. Now listen, I'm gonna tell you right now I see Peloton trucks all over this place, right? So I was feeling they did just fine but the real part of that commercial was how people responded saying, How could a husband give his already beautiful wife a Peloton bike to lose more weight? And so there's a lot of, like it was crazy social media all over the place about like, What kind of a jerk husband is this? He keeps always pushing his wife or gets his wife to lose weight, and it like it blew up, it blew up on people, and you know even though the commercial like you know she's very happy. There are a lot of women out there that are like you better never get me an exercise bike, you better never get that, so I kept thinking myself this guy was thinking it was like the greatest gift ever. And then there's this whole other group of people that can possibly look at that Peloton bike and thought what kind of an A hole would ever give their wife weight loss equipment, you know? And so, I'm going to help you not have to overthink your Christmas gifts. And this is it. The first thing you have to do is figure out her aspirational goals because aspirations help us feel like superheroes. And you know, the first way to do this, Steve, you want to get a sheet of paper out and you just want to think to yourself, What are all the things that she's looking to do? Like, is she looking to lose some weight? Is she looking to learn Spanish? Is she looking to just, put a whole big list of things that she's looking to do, things that should not what she wants, because anybody can buy gifts that people want. You want to help, you want to buy a gift that she needs. And sometimes we don't really know what we need until we see it. So just get that list out and think through all those little things that you think she wants to have done. And in the Peloton example, I thought losing weight would be a classic if you're thinking about Peloton you better have on your list that she wants to lose weight. You got to have it on your list or it's not going to make any sense at any kind of weight loss, except what would ever happen in the first place.

I can't believe you're stepping all over those minefields. The reason that guy bought that Peloton, it's because he wanted it.

It's so true. I once bought a Bluetooth toilet, a smart toilet from my house for a gift for us, for our home, for her home warming gift. I kept thinking, I want a Bluetooth toilet. Steve, the seat comes up like this, it knows when I'm in the room, is a heated seat, the whole thing so you're right. That was not the best gift I've ever given Melanie.

Well this year be sure to give her The Golden Toilet. What are cheap Bluetooth toilets?

Nice plug. So you got to figure out those regular functional goals. But listen, I can tell you right now nobody wants to lose weight. They may think they want to lose weight but that's not really what gets somebody up in the morning. That's not really what gets her up to 6am to get on a Peloton bike or whatever, there is a bigger purpose and that is what we call aspirations. And so you got to get that list out and say, Well what does she aspire? What is the hero that she wants to be in? And in my head I kept thinking, you know, it's about maybe, giving example like, being fabulous at 50 like that's it. Wife or husband starting to get older, they're 50 years old, and I'm just like, this is a new decade, a new life stage, new everything. It's about being fab 50 you want to buy your gift Steve, around this aspirational goal of fab at 50 or whatever that higher order thing is.

So should I start with a catalog? Like a Brookstone catalog?

Oh god, this is my mistake and listen, only as your last resort. I know you've done this, Steve. I know every guy's done this. When you don't know what to buy me and go to Brookstone, but you got to be like at the last minute because Brookstone has so many cool things that if nothing else, it'll be unique, right? It'll feel unique, but you don't want to start there. Because that's limiting your choices, right? It's gonna limit your choices to things that you find are really cool like a remote control helicopter or, what do they have those massage chairs that you get in and then they massage you? Those are gifts for you, Steve, you know they are they're not gifts for her. They're not gifts for her, not the jewelry cleaner, the ultrasonic jewelry cleaner that you can buy there, only as a last resort guys, don't do that until it's December 22. Then you go to Brookstone, you better go to one of the mall.

But brainstorming about aspirational goals just seems like a lot of work Will.

Oh no! It's fun. It's exciting. So let's say if you're looking at all those things that she wants, or you think that she wants, she wants to lose some weight. She wants to run a marathon, whatever, all these different things. Then you say, Now what's really the big thing like what's that hero? What is that hero moment that she's trying to like know that when she gets there, that that is all the emotion that everything has to, all these things combined into? And that is, whatever that thing is whether is fab at 50 or something else, that's the fun, I mean it really doesn't take you too long Steve, it's just kind of just knowing yourself and asking that one question we ask all the time. Why is that important? Why is that important? Why is losing weight important? Ask yourself twice, same thing we do all the time, ask that question twice. If you'll get to a higher order more aspirational goal that heroes she wants to be she wants to be fabulous at 50.

So give us some tips on how to ask her those questions when it's not obvious where we can start to identify these things.

Yeah, so the one thing I would do is not ask, that makes you look needy, right? Don't ask Steve. Well, not at first, what you have to do is look at what she has on the table. So when Melanie, my wife, she has magazines that she reads. And when she goes on her Facebook feed, you could see Facebook pages that she likes those, the reason why she's engaging with that content could be because there's something meaningful in that for her. There's Facebook pages, see what pages she's a member of or what she's engaged with, and look at her magazines, if it's cooking magazines, maybe some cooking things, she aspires to be a better cook, and why is that aspiring to be a better cook? Because maybe she wants to be better kind of this vision of this perfect, awesome entertainer in the home, right? That's the aspirations that you can buy again. So do that go to Facebook pages, go see things that she likes, and then if you're still lost, then you may want to have that conversation about like, I don't know, like kind of Where do you see yourself in a couple of years? Those kind of deep meaningful conversations you have with a glass of wine. Where do you see us? What excites you about the next couple of years? You'll get there.

So what is this hero within me, this kind of like touchy feeling? That again, a lot of work, you've got to prep to do for a gift.

Yeah, you don't do this for you know your mate that You're saving my bacon. So there a lot of folks listening, you're you barely know. That's not w o you do it for, this for the p ople that you love, right? T ose are where the gifts matter. o remember the hero with him. e all of us have the better vers on of ourselves that's locked in our brain, like every day t at you go through your existen e. Most days, you're str ving for a better self, the ero that you always thought you would be. That's the reason why e get up in the morning. So som of you think you get up for money. But really what money doe is something more meaningfu , money allows you to uy things to get you, and do t ings, that get you closer to this idealized person that de p down inside, you know, you ar . The greatest dad out there, he Super handyman kind of work orkshop guy, you have all t ese heroes within. Understanding just one of those things, one of those aspirations and those heroes that your wife or your husband, deep down wants to b , buy for that man, buy for th t. helping us. Alright, so now you have step three here. Cool, because we don't just have a shopping list So if you get the functional things, right, you put those on lists. Those are things that are not meaningful gifts. What you've done by finding out her hero within is you've expanded your possible list. So let's say those to lose weight, and that if you're buying off that, what would you do? You'd like, Okay, I'm going to probably do something around exercise, maybe buy her a pair of shoes, maybe some new, you know, workout equipment, right? When you go to aspirations, if she wants to be fat at 50, now you're talking about, you expanded your list dramatically, you can start thinking about coaching, you can start thinking about experiences, you can think about books and products. So your what'll happen is when you think about her at a broader, more emotional, aspirational hero within your list is going to expand dramatically. So I made your life, though in a way, it's good, Steve. But now you may have a list of like 40 things like, Oh, God, we promise we're only gonna buy two things, right? How do you get that list of 40 down to two? Here's how you do it, narrow it through motivational psychology. So we've talked about this in the past, we desire feelings, right? We're emotional beings, we're human beings. What we really want is to feel something that's why we buy the products we get. That's why we love when people give us gifts. It's not the gift itself. It's how the gift makes us feel, those feelings, those desires, map back to one of nine, all feelings, all desires, map back to one of nine motivations or desires. We talked about these in the book. So it just so happens, they're in the book, right? It's in, chapter on motivation, is chapter seven, chapter six?

Yeah, yeah.

So what you're going to do? Is look and think to yourself, what does she desire? And here are the desires, we've said it before success, freedom, acceptance, mastery, control captivation, or just excitement or release, so captivation admiration or she desires to be admired in some way, love, insecurity. Those are the nine. So if ultimately, she wants to feel those things, you should evaluate that list based upon its ability to give you that thing or give her that thing. So I went back to that Peloton and I was like, okay, so would I buy a Peloton ad? Or why would I buy a peloton? Alright, it's expensive, Iget all that stuff, you got to figure out if you can afford and all that stuff. But once you have all the things on that list that you can afford, start thinking about, Is that going to deliver that feeling? So let's say, and this is my wife, my wife, just in general she is driven by the desire to belong she loves groups. She's an extrovert she loves parties. She loves to feel like she's a part of something, she loves belonging and autonomy, which is desire for freedom. She doesn't want to be kept captured in one room. She doesn't want to be told exactly what to do. She wants to have lots of freedom. So belonging and freedom. When I think about Peloton I go, Okay would that give her freedom? I don't know about that because I think she wants variety, she seeks variety in exercise so Peloton would be kind of limiting. In belonging my wife enjoys people, she doesn't want to be locked in a room even though Peloton ads make it look really great because they're always glass rooms and beautiful but she wants to be with people, she wants to talk to people and yeah you can sit there and you can try to push really hard on this whole idea of like yeah yeah she can meet people on Peloton, come on that's not true. She desires human interaction. So I'm gonna look at Peloton, the bike, I go I'm not sure if that's the case. And then I look on the other side and I go okay, but let's say if your wife or your husband was like achievement and competence so he desires or she desired success and mastery well then that makes sense. I think Peloton is all about, like I don't know much about Peloton I have something different, but I do know that you're going in the classes you're trying to one up, you're competing against each other. Well hell if your wife or your husband loves competition, that starts down pretty good because competition is inherently part of that gift. Or to be a better rider, like so if mastery getting better at something and specifically at biking right? Well then the Peloton makes total sense because it is conditioning you to become a better rider. So I'm like okay, so if that was one of those things that she desires, greater competence, or greater achievement or feelings of success, it makes sense. So all I need to do is just go to the nine motivations, those nine desires in my book and just say, How well does that gift, deliver on that feeling? And you can start eliminating gifts quickly. Because if you're trying and you're struggling really hard to come up into find that linkage with this one gift that you think is cool. It's not cool. It's not a good gift. Get it off your list.

Well, I was like, why did everybody go to that the husband wanted her to lose weight? Like what if she was like going to be attempting Mount Everest? At some point, or maybe that was her aspirational, wouldn't like you want to support her in her fitness goal?

Exactly. I agree with you, or what if there was just like, I've been in moments in my life where I've lacked confidence. In fact, I talked about this in my book, where there was a point in time where I lacked confidence in myself. I had a boss that just annihilated my confidence. And you know what I use triathlons for it. Like people say, Oh, you ran that human USB like hardcore type ape guy, Iron Man. That's not why, it wasn't to achieve anything. It was because training allowed me to control, it gave me a sense of control over my life, because I was going to my job and not feeling I have any control over my life. So what if that was it? Like the Peloton could be perfect for somebody who just needs more confidence. It's a great gift, you can achieve levels, you know what you're getting into, you'd make friends. So I'm with you, man. I always thought that was a really bad misrepresentation of what that ad was saying. Because it looked at me like I'm very in and she's like, You changed my life for my confidence to me. So that's what I saw. I never I never hated that commercial. I thought that commercial was just fine. But you know, it's the new, it's a new generation, we love to hate things. So that's what you do. You rally around things like that.

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So you have this big list, Steve. And now hopefully you had you had 40 things, you've narrowed it down to maybe 10. Maybe, let's call it 10, well ten is a lot of things, that's a lot of things to get. So if you want to narrow it down even more, you got to eliminate choices that can't be explained. And we've all been here. Have you ever given a gift? And I did it with the toilet, Have you ever been given a gift or you gave a gift and then as you give it and their opening you start to explain why you bought it? Let me say why I got this look because, and you can tell the story isn't connecting really well. Like you can just tell that you're trying anything you can do to force fit this thing into why you chose this. And I'm telling you there's a point where every guy knows, every good gift giver knows that if they're trying too hard to figure out that story. You should stay away. Stay away from it right? Because we've all been there. I did it last year. This is my son, my son is the most um, he hates to spoil. He doesn't even know how good he has it. He does not know how good he has it. So he needed a computer for school. But he was used to using iPads, used to using iPads. So he had to have it, at school he was doing programming. And even as a programmer, he kept saying I want an iPad, I want an iPad I so for Christmas we got him, Santa got him a new Surface, it was my used one but he didn't know any better. So it was a Surface computer. Steve, I gave it to him and the kid starts crying, now I mean bawling, and I'm thinking to myself, In what world do you live that you would cry when you get a computer? And I remember trying to explain to him how this is better than an iPad, like I'm like this will allow you, it has a keyboard, it allows you to do so much more, but his mind It was horrible. I kept trying to justify it, and tell him the story about why they're so much better, why I picked this or why Santa got him this. And I remember now thinking back and I'm like, if I were to use this I never would have done it, because the story to get you from the thing that you bought to the thing that they think they need, if that story is too hard to get to, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter how good you think it is, it only matters on how well they know the story and easy to connect to the story they are, so if you're struggling with the story, you're in trouble, eliminate anything that you're struggling with a story on.

So you shouldn't got him that Bluetooth toilet he would have been more jacked up about that.

He uses that, that's the only place that he'll go number two. He goes all the way into our masters, and he has another two bathrooms he could use, and he's an only child. He has to go to ours because yeah, as the water thing has, I mean it's awesome. So let me give you another example, man. I'm going to tell you guys, if you're out there. Well, I'll tell you, I don't know, there could be people that that want this gift. But, um, I once gave a DNA test, you know those DNA tests? If I'm honest, I was I was running out of time. And I went to a Walgreens, and I figured out like, there is a good gift. Like, that's the gift, I'm gonna get the DNA test. And that was not one of my better days, right? Because the story that I had to make up about why I thought that would be such a great thing, that you could go swab your own mouth and send it, and you're gonna get a map back from Walgreens, I did that because I was just out of options. I had 20 minutes, and I went to Walgreens down the road, and I did it. As I was telling that story about why how cool, I was trying to say, I know how interested you are with the past, I made that up. Like there's no interest in the past. I never knew anything about that. I thought how interesting be to know where your ancestors may have came from Russia or whatever. And I remember just the look on the face. And how awkward that look was. And I'm just going to help you guys out there. If you're going to do a DNA test, you're gonna buy a DNA test for somebody, you better make sure that they have some, like they're into ancestry.com, their genetics, because if not it's the worst gift ever. It's the most awkward gift to give because they look at you like, what the hell are you doing? Like, why would you give me this DNA test? You get nothing back, you get nothing. You one time you mail it, it's gone. And you get an email back saying you're from Spain, or you're you know, you're from Africa somewhere. That's it? It's over.

No, honey I love this, well, how do I take the test? You spit a whole bunch into this tube. Ooh!

That's right. So eliminate choices where if you can imagine you're trying to figure out a way to connect that gift to your significant other? That's not a good gift, man, I'm gonna save you some heartache. That's what you do.

All right. So what I'm picking up on and this because I'm a guy, and I'm so intuitive is that this story behind the gift. Okay, so I never thought about it that way. But you do when you give someone a gift and they open it up, and they do the obligatory smile, and thank you. You always support it with your reasoning behind that story.

So my wife is been going to these parties, have y'all been going to these parties? Where you go to a party, and everybody has to bring a gift that has meaning. And before they, so like let's say if you have five people at this gift ceremony, I've never been to, it's girl thing. We should do this maybe. But you go there and you get five, since there's five people, you buy five of the exact same thing, could be anything. And then you tell your story about why it's meaningful to you. And then you get that gift out. There's so much more meaning when you know the story behind a gift, right? And so you're right, story, we love story. We live in a world of story and narrative psychology tells us that. So yeah, anytime, especially a big gift like that one special gift that you're gonna give to your significant other, wrap that up in a story and they'll always be meaning. My wife's engagement ring, she has a story behind it because we were broke. We didn't have any money. I couldn't afford anything that I that I wanted to be able to give her. But I designed it myself. So I kind of sat down. And when I say designed, I mean I came up with the ideas. And I went to a jeweler, and I just said, Here's her, here's what she loves. Here's her colors, here's her birthstones, here's what I kind of think in the diamond should be. And then I just gave it to a designer and said, Can you can you come back with something? And they came back something almost overnight. So here's a couple of ideas. I chose the one. But when I told my story, I told her I designed it, because I guess technically I did. I knew what I wanted, but I know how to design jewelry, and I don't know, the shapes and things like that. And she's still, 16 years later well 18 years later, we're engaged for two years, talks about how the meaningfulness of this ring because I designed it, I designed that thing. And so that whole story of me working with a designer and picking up the stones, I mean, you know, between us, right, like, I didn't pick up stones, I mean, they showed me stones I can afford I was like okay, that's kind of what I can afford. And then they put it into a great setting. But she knows that I designed this ring and it has so much more meaning than just we bought it at jail or sales or you know, Jareds

So how does, I'm just fascinated, How did you work Batman into your engagement ring? Cuz you designed it right? And so you've got the Batman design in there somewhere?

Oh my, I was like, Batman? Where's he going? Is this a psychologic tricking me? No, I was not able to incorporate it, well, though. If you look on the inside, just on the inside there is a gray, there's a little signal in the background, right near our date, she thinks it's a heart, but it's really a batt symbol in the engraving part of it. Yeah.

I love it.

So like use behavioral psychology, not just for your business, use it to better your relationships.

So this story that you weave in here, he's like, Alright, you know, the hero and the aspirational image that he or she would be, this gift is going to compliment or support that narrative in some way. And it conveys that you understand them and that you'd actually put some thought into it. So for example, let's go back to Peloton, she came down, was all excited about it, but we missed the story that he told her about it right? So had that been included in that commercial there would have been a lot less, the fat haters, right? And so, you would have heard like him go, You know, honey, I know that it's always been a goal of yours to ride across the states. And you have this chip plan coming up next year, but here we are in in COVID and so I thought what a great thing that this Peloton could help you continue your training so that you really enjoy your trip across America.

You're ready, that's it. If they just would have started that, you're right, if they just would have started that commercial, let's go back to the commercial, they'd like you know, Peloton is really about, you know, building confidence because throuought like honey, I knew you had a really hard year this year. A Peloton! Done like that just sets up the whole point so she pays it off in the end saying basically when she looks at the blog and she's saying like you got me to a place like, I'm something now that I wasn't before, you just paid off the entire narrative arc right? You start off with the conflict. They built themselves up to a peak and then they kind of met their realized goal so yes, so simple. We do it in business all the time. We do it in marketing campaigns. Why wouldn't you do it in real life for the people that you love most?

There you go. So Will speaking of Superman, what do you got behind your front of your cape there? What do you What are you wearing?

Oh, I was wondering if you were gonna pick that up. Look at that! I got this awesome t shirt from a dear friend of mine.

Look at that, the ROI Online

ROI Online!

So I was thinking before I sent that, you know, how you like to look buff on these and that this would make you look buff. So that's why I sent that.

My God that made perfect sense. I thought I mean this guy gets me this guy. He knows that I'm ashamed of my body. But it makes my chest like, and my belly is not so good. So I love it. You gave me deep emotional level, right? Anybody could sent over some koozies? Right? Anybody could do that. Right? There you go.

There are there you are repping the brand. So Will this has been a year to remember, okay? And so those that are listening right now, we talked about this. I was on a live stream before this. But we talked about what what lesson did you learn this year? What you learned about yourself? If we were going to talk about your aspirational identity, it wasn't winning, this year didn't feel like winning. But something from this experience has made you feel better about your journey towards your aspirational identity.

Yeah, that is a great, profound question. It really is. Um, and you're right. This was not a year for winning for a lot of people, for a lot of people. What I learned, and I'm still learning every day is resilience. I feel like this was a year to push how resilient am I really, at the at my core. Like there have been moments in my life where I felt like i've you know, I've had resilience, when I was in the military, you go through basic training. Yeah, you know, you're being pressured every day, to just make it through the next day. Um, this year has been a trial of how resilient are you? Are you going to give up? Are you going to take a couple of days off? Or are you going to just try to get one foot in front of the other? I have a student asked me, um, just two or three weeks ago, and it was it was actually, it was a bit sad the way she framed it, but she said, How do you get up in the mornings? Like it's almost as she was asking for herself, but she was like, how do you get out of bed? Like because it's hard. It's hard out there. And I just said, Every day even when I don't want to get out of bed, because life is tough right now, there's so much happening. I say I just put one foot in front of the other, I get in front of the computer, and I just start. And also I look up and it's about an hour and a half in. And that's resilience building. And I'm gonna keep continuing to do that, because life is hard. I gotta teach that to my son too, because life's gonna be very hard for everybody in the future too, so resilience is something that I've learned this year and the importance of it, and not that I'm great at it, because we all don't have great days. But but the importance of having the resilience to just take a step forward. It's what God told me this year.

That's awesome. And I'm glad she didn't ask me that because I want to answer like, well, you don't understand, but as a man gets older, he's got to go to the restroom righ away, so, yeah. Mine wouldn't have been as profound.

Not as profound. I don't believe that. I think it's down deep. I think you would have gotten there.

No, I love that. As you were telling that story I was thinking about my hero is Ernest Shackleton. Okay. And his moment of greatness, if there was ever a time he that 2020 would have fit into the deal was he was going to navigate across Antarctica. And so this was that 1914. So he'd got the boat together, got the team together, went down there, and the boat gets frozen in to the ice. And so they have to sit there for all a winter and then they think, okay, when it starts warm up, the ice will break. We'll sail away, and we'll be okay. Well, it didn't. And so it started, the ice actually crushed the boat. And he and all of his men after a year and a half or maybe longer, they got back and not one man was lost. There wasn't a mutiny. There wasn't cannibalism. And it's so it's a beautiful story about an awful situation where leadership and persistence got them through an ordeal where really everyone should have perished.

Yeah. Wow, I love that. That's some real resilience day after day. Just getting through the day is the most important thing in Antarctica. Wow. Amazing.

So his family motto before that was about endurance, you know, by and we and I'm gonna mess it up. But something through endurance we survive, or we thrive or whatever. So are two different things. But it's an excellent story. I really encourage you, the book's called endurance. And it's Ernest Shackleton

I've heard of Shackleton before. Yeah.

Yeah. beautiful story, you need to read it. There are several books about it. I highly recommend it for everyone. So speaking of gifts for the year, I encourage folks to give Will's book in the professional community, it's Marketing To Mindstates. That's right. It's a practical guide to applying behavior design and research and marketing and how to pick the perfect gift to your loved ones in your life.

Thank you. Thank you very much.

Will, I've enjoyed these conversations and we're going to continue doing them all through next year. Give us a little bit, what's on the horizon for The Mindstate Group.

We have so many things going on guys like this whole year has been a year of just learning about our market who they are, and what we need, and what they need. And so you know, we already have book packages are out, we're going to come out in early 2021 with a brand new masterclass that you can download videos and coursework. To learn this, you know, I'm teaching at Texas A&M University at the Human Behavioral Lab. So you can be certified in Mindstate Marketing starting in January. So the end of January. So one of our first episodes, I'll be pushing that a little bit more, but you can actually sign up and register right now at Texas A&M University's Human Behavior Lab, where you can learn nothing, just what I do Mindstate Marketing, but also behavioral economics and control store testing, all sorts of great behavioral science courses that you can become certified as an applied behavioral economist, and be on the lookout for even more workshops. So we've revamped all of our workshops, we do personalized one on one workshops where you can take the concepts of the book, but we work together to identify your customers mind state and then tell you how to adjust your messaging, adjust your business processes to match back to somebody's mind state and kind of getting this emotional kind of connection that you and I have been talking about. The gift giving you can do the exact same thing with your clients so that they see you as, you made me the hero I wanted to be. So tons of great things. I'm really excited about it. And it's almost like I can't wait to just jump right into 2021 because there's nothing but good things coming out of 2020.

2021 it's gotta be the time for everyone to take what they learned in 2020, you got more room, you got more mean, you're a fighting machine and next year is your year to shine. Yeah, so Marketing To Mindstates by Will Leach. You can find him at themindstategroup.com and Marketing To Mindstates is a blueprint that offers framework to identify emotions to connect with your clients. Will, great conversation I enjoyed it. Thanks so much.

Thank you very much. Happy Holidays, everybody, be safe, be with family, and do great things.

Over and out. And that's a wrap. Thanks for listening to another fun episode of the ROI Online Podcast. For more be sure to check out the show notes of this episode. And feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn where we can chat and I can help direct you to the resources you're searching for. To learn more about how you can grow your business better be sure to pick up your copy of my book, The Golden Toilet at surprise thegoldentoilet.com I'm Steve Brown, and we'll see you next week on another fun episode of the ROI Online Podcast.