[Special Episode] The Mindstate Marketing Hour #18 with Will Leach - The ROI Online Podcast Ep. 86

Hey everybody welcome to a special series of conversations sponsored by the ROI Online Podcast with Will Leach, he's the author of Marketing To Mindstatesthe practical guide to applying behavior designed to research and marketing. And in these conversations we're going to deep dive and explore all the insights from wills book as you learn how to use science to connect better with your clients. I'm Steve Brown and here we go. Welcome everybody to the live show, our weekly live show The Mindstate Marketing Hour with Will Leach. He's the author of Marketing To Mindstates, and I always like to say his book is about how to use science to connect with your clients. He's also, his website is themindstategroup.com so The Mindstate Marketing Blueprint offers a framework to identify emotions to connect with your clients and Will, today the topic is...

Winning back lost customers

That's right! We almost lost him all right there

I know that weird pause, well I thought we're gonna start off you know like the holidays How are you doing? I haven't talked to you in a couple of days.

Well let's talk about that, because we did have the holidays. We had another new year. There's a lot going on. How was the holidays? Did you get a gift? Or did you again have to go out to the airport on Christmas morning?

I did well, I learned my lesson of going out to the airport you know the night before Christmas because that's all that was open. No, I did Okay I think, now it's always the kid, at this age the kid gets all the good stuff. You know what I mean? We get the socks but I will tell you and I'll guys know this. I got tons of socks but I got those gold toe socks which are like okay, if you're gonna give me socks go with the gold toe, those are the best so any guy out there you know what I'm talking about. Yeah, the boy. He did well, Santa did, he was a good boy. Santa hooked him up. So yeah, overall good, didn't see as much family as I wanted to I'm not sure about you. You know, it's sad. We all couldn't travel. But it was intimate and, and exciting. How about you?

Same you know, it was lowkey, hang out with my parents we cooked a little bit you know, my brother came in so really enjoyed it. And so it was like one of our better Christmases actually.

Oh, good for you. That's the way it should be man hometown, Tennessee tender I guess I'm not in Tennessee, but it runs through those Tennessee tender Christmases that I grew up idolizing so good for you. Amen.

So Will, you know, as business people, as entrepreneurs, we carry around this little thing in the back of our head about the clients that we made mistakes on, that we pissed off, that we dropped the ball and that they left, they had to pick up their bags and go somewhere else. And that's just, you know, that's something that you're going to risk when you start a business and then the normal part of business even though you don't intend it, but you have a great topic today to talk about the things that we can kind of pay attention to, to maybe win back some of those clients who were actually a good fit, and you've upped your game. How do we do that? What do we do?

Yeah, you know, I love that point. Because I'm a very different business today than I was when I first started. You're trying to figure out what you stand for, your processes. And even though you have great relationships with clients, sometimes the you know, they kind of cheat on you. Right? I've heard this, i'm sure none of ours have. But yeah, they kind of cheat on you. And to be honest with you guys, last year was a cheat fest. So across the board, so McKinsey. Now, nobody, these have to be anonymous, right? Because nobody would admit that they cheated on one of their favorite customers, right? But here's the fact McKinsey came out and they've been doing a great job at really understanding business through COVID. So if you ever want to go out and learn like just go to Mackenzie's website, you know, the consulting company, and they did a study and they released the study results in end of November. And it was really telling from a behavioral science perspective. It says that a full three out of four customers, three out of four people really is the way to think about it. Three out of four people have tried either a new brand, a new store or a new kind of channel whether it's like home delivery or pickup curb, so and the other thing they said is a 80% of those people that tried kind of a new partner, if you will, say that they're going to stay. Now, I know that those numbers probably aren't totally accurate because people overinflate some of their behaviors, I will tell you this, that from a behavioral perspective, those numbers are staggering. Because we as people, we hate change, we're habitual. We go to the same brands, even though we act like you know, I use the same exact cereal every week, you really don't you have a group of cereal brands, you have a group of agencies, you have a group of people that help you solve your business problems. And that's the reality. But fact of the matter is, when you see three out of four people have switched, those numbers are staggering, it was no fault of your own, it was COVID, it was maybe your brand wasn't available, maybe you know, you couldn't pick up the phone, because you had kids in your home. And you're trying to do education, there's all these things that happened that one day when your client may have needed you, either you couldn't deliver, or you didn't deliver, or they may have just heard about something new, right? They may have heard, and they tried something new because every other company was trying to gain your customers. And so we have a lot of people out there who have lost customers, and they may not even know it. They just think that oh, I haven't heard from this in a while they actually may be using your competitor right now. And McKinsey would suggest that they have.

So this is actually one legitimate thing that we can take out of the COVID thing is we can blame it on the COVID that three out of four have cheated on us.

That's right. That's right. Nothing you could have done about it. Frankly, there's just nothing you could have done about it. But we can win them back.

We can? So let's talk about that. How can we, what are some strategies to help us shake up the way that we would approach it normally?

That's right. So you know, in many cases, you would go You know what, like, Well, once everything calms down, they'll come back. Like, you know, we always say this, well, you know, right now, it's not the right time, but they're gonna find their way back. And I'm telling you, that's not true. Normally, I would tell you that but when you see this level of change, when you see 80% of people are saying, You know what, I kind of like this new brand, I like this new company, I like this new thing that I got, and they intend to purchase again, you cannot rely on their instincts to kind of try you out again, you have to be active. You can't just wait or those people, a lot of people will never never come back. So let's first off say you should even if you don't realize it out there, you've lost customers, you may not even know the customers you've lost but you've lost customers. So you better be proactive and going to find how to bring those customers back in and it comes down to motivational psychology and desires.

There it is time back into that book called Marketing To Mindstates. I don't have it right here and I'm at my home office.

Oh my gosh, come on now. I got mine. I always got my little copy there, Marketing To Mindstates.

I only have seven copies. But you know

Come on. Come on.

So we can't you know, when my dog would run away and dad would say Don't worry, don't worry, little Pixie, we'll come back home. You're saying

Pixie has new treats a new master giving good food, Pixie doesn't remember you that much. You gotta know, man, you gotta get proactive, you've got to realize that some of your customers right now are trying out your competitor. They just the numbers are telling you that. So you know motivational psychology does a lot of work around bringing people back and bringing you their loss customers back. or bringing your current customers to a state of never wanting to leave you. That's a ton of motivational psychology. And there's certain rules of thumb that you can use right now to start leaning on how to bring those customers back. And even, you know, I don't like to use the word loyalty. You know how I feel about loyalty, right? The numbers show you there's not a ton of it out there. But if you have a shot, you better start thinking about motivational psychology to keep your customers engaged with you and not cheating on you.

So other than combing our hair, brushing your teeth, shaving our legs, what are some actually legitimate things we can do to rekindle their desire to come back home?

That's right. So let's just even take a step back for a minute and say, Well, what is this desire thing? So here's how the science plays out for you guys. We desire, we have these desires in our lives that make us feel more attracted to something, someone it could be inanimate objects, right? It's not just like, I love it you said like, I can make myself look prettier, but there are emotions and desires that actually even if you look really really pretty, that can strengthen that attraction to you, or still maybe you know, you look pretty but I'm just not really attracted. It's like the girl, and you know this happens all time you see these actresses on TV, they're beautiful. But you're like, right now, you know, you couldn't spend 10 minutes with her. I'm gonna give you my version. Mariah Carey, Mariah Carey, to me is over the top beautiful, talented, but I know I could stand maybe 10 minutes in a room with her before I'm like, I can't do it. I'm not attracted to her from a emotional standpoint, she's talented and attractive in other ways, but not, not that. So...

that's assuming she'd want to hang out with you.

That's not an assumption that's Come on, Steve. I got a book I got a book I didn't want talk to me, right? Now what's good for you guys, like I know some people like desires and emotions. I don't know, listen, guys, there is only seven. Really the motivations like there's seven things that you want to communicate to whoever you you desire, whether it's your client, or maybe even your spouse, or maybe Mariah Carey, there are only seven of these things that you need to pick out. So it's important to figure out what those seven are.

But why do I have nine desires?

Oh, I'm sorry. I said, there are nine desires. there's no seven, I'm sorry, why don't go seven? I don't know. I think the Mariah Carey visuals got me awkward, nine desires.

Mariah, he wrote a book and he can't remember whether it's nine or seven.

Well, two of them are starting to weigh on me a little bit. And I'll tell you an example of how I recently use this actually for a law firm in a little bit. So there are these nine desires, guys. And what you got to do is first identify or know what these desires are. So let's just limit all the possible emotions down to nine. And then from there, I'm going to show you how to use those in your favor.

All right, so let's, here's the list.

Yep, in no order. These are in no order. But if you want to understand how to attract people back, your clients, you know, your brand, whatever, it comes down to these nine desires. First is help people feel successful. Just how do you get them to know that they are victorious, proud in their in their success. So people desire success. And that's why they will buy the brands that they buy. That's why they'll engage with you as a company. A second desire, and these are at the highest level kind of deep psychological level is a desire for freedom. And desire for freedom, you know, drives a lot of different things out there. But people desire to be free, especially in our culture, especially in the US, the desire to be free. And also uniqueness comes in here to people's desire to feel like they are unique in some way. So if you can help your customers know that you will help them be freer or more unique, key desire. A third one, oh, you're gonna say, you got an idea?

Acceptance? Well, so I'm thinking of these well, as you're going through them. And, well, I don't want to derail you here. But putting an educational component that resolves one of these desires is a beautiful way to bring them back in or at least test drive you again.

I totally agree. I think we're going to talk about as well, if you can figure out, if you figured out that your customers desire to feel accepted. Well, there is messaging things you can do. But there's also business things you can do. I'm gonna tell you about what we do this law office on how we use one of these, and we change the way that they interact with their lawyers. And we think that's going to help drive this feeling and this desire. So when someone, when their customers have this desire, their lawyer will come to mind versus Legal Zoom, which is frankly, kicking butt, right? Because Legal Zoom is a cheaper alternative. They're cheating on my lawyer with Legal Zoom, well, Legal Zoom doesn't make you desire this one thing, and that's our goal here. So yeah, that third one is acceptance, guys. And that is this feeling of just belonging with others, right? So this is why you know, you join tennis clubs and tennis leagues, and Harley Davidson. But this idea that people desire some level of acceptance. The fourth one is skilled. Now, sometimes people just desire to feel like they are skilled. And that they are getting smarter in something more technically proficient in something and that creates a lot of desire to work with a new company. The fifth one is a desire for control, especially right now, right with the world that we live in. There's a lot of people asking for more control over their lives over their children's education, lots of things like that. And you know, we've been talking late last year about controls one of those major things like if you don't know anything about your customer right now, lean in on control, because it's such an overriding desire across everybody's lives, not just their business life, overall their lives so if you knew nothing, I'd lean in on control. The next one is captivated. Like and this is very much human relation. Like when somebody makes you feel captivated, like they just they can draw in your attention. And they can maintain your attention, whether it's through excitement or just moments of relaxation. That's a desire people have, especially now too, right? There's a lot of people like wine companies going crazy. And spirit companies are going crazy right now because they are able to deliver on if you buy my spirit, my wine, I'm going to be able to lower your stress, cautivation. Another one is admiration. This is just purely like people desire to be admired in some way, that's why we have these luxury brands like Prada, and things like that, like a key reason is not because the quality of a Prada bag, it is because Prada signals to you subconsciously, that you are admired. You can afford a Prada bag, you can, you are one of those highly esteemed types of people that you know, that can afford something like that. And last year, the easy ones love and safety, right? So people desire, love and care. It's a human fundamental thing that we all as human beings have. I mean, we even have the primates, and research, just having the mother caressing a baby is a huge thing, right? It can create this emotional attachment. Now creating love as a company to company, that's tough. I know companies can do it, it's hard. And lastly, safety. And there's a strong drive for just purely feeling like they're safe, and that they're in your hands. And so there's a whole sorts of stuff in the book, you can read about these, these nine, but high level, your job is to say to yourself, okay, these are the nine desires that are possible. Which ones kind of fit with my client, as I know them? What are they looking for? What are they? What are they hoping to feel as it relates to my business? And then from there, you go on.

So you know, next we're going to talk about step one, identify your customers core desire. So but I want to ask you a question. Not necessarily self serving. But you know, you are a client of my agency. And I'm curious of those nine motivations. What are in play for you, as you're working with my team?

Wow, great question. So one, for sure, that comes to mind is competence, which was, when I approached you, I knew very little about digital marketing, you know, I knew the psychology of marketing, I didn't know how it comes to life. And what you did what other agencies did not do was tell me that you were going to teach me how to get this thing started. Because at that time, I didn't know whether or not I'd want to maintain a relationship, bring somebody internal in house to do my own marketing. And so at first, it was purely competence, you're going to make me smarter in this space. And frankly, I needed to do that anyways, if I'm going to tell other businesses how to market I need to start understanding the mechanics of marketing. So competence, for me, was a big driver. And I, you know, I don't know if you knew that we had five other companies that were looking at five other agencies, most of them local, in fact, because I thought back then I thought, My number one goal is to have somebody local, because I want to create a relationship, which would be belonging, I wanted to feel like I was a part of a team, because I didn't want to just hand off my stuff, and then a week later, get a bunch of emails, or, you know, different posts back saying, here's what you need to do, or we're gonna do it for you. I felt like I wanted to have a team. And when you guys were not in Dallas, I actually leaned against you for that reason. But you brought competence. And so I said, Okay, well, let's see how this plays out. Now you have a great model, right? Because you have an introductory model where you can kind of get a taste for low price, and it's fast, you get us to a great place, website, everything kind of built out. And then you're like, Okay, that's our starter kit. Now you can choose to remain or Hey, congratulations, we're kind of done. But by then I felt like I was a team. I felt like, you know, the staff, my team, I love them. They're speaking my language now. So I built that connection. And that was not love connection was more belonging. I feel like I'm a part of your team. And I certainly think your team is a part of my company. So I think those were the two.

So if we go to the way to identify your customers core desire from that example that you just gave, how can someone kind of back up and go, start to identify what some of the core desires that are in play with their persona or their avatar?

Yeah. So I mean, there's two ways to do it. One is you would do research, marketing research. Now, a lot of small businesses out there can't do the marketing research, don't have the time to do the marketing research. You got to be able to have conversations. To do marketing research. You need to be able to interact with customers. If you know how it is. It's hard to get people to take surveys anymore and have conversations. So the second best thing and I could argue that it's maybe the where you want to start if your small business is layout those nine desires, layout those kind of those nine words on a table. And the first thing I'll tell you to do is start cutting first, don't try to identify which of these nine are for your customer, just eliminate the ones that don't make sense. So for instance, with you guys, I did not desire for you guys to protect me, it wasn't a big thing. Like, I didn't think I was going to have such horrible marketing that I needed you to protect my business I just, so I cross it off. I wasn't looking to be loved by you guys, though. I love you now, but I wasn't looking. for that. So I you know, for an agency, I don't know if you can be loved, right? So start eliminating things like that, that you can, when you look at right off the bat and just go, No it's not us. So let me give you the example of the law office, talk to the lawyer, lawyers problem was, he knows that some of his clients have legal issues, but then come COVID they just stopped talking like, Hey, you know, I'm gonna put on hold. Because, you know, nobody kind of knows what to do a lot of a lot of their business dried up. And then kind of word when he would follow up was things like, Well, you know, choosing to go to LegalZoom, or, you know, they're either pausing that relationship, or they're choosing to go to something cheaper. And they're asking for lower rates, which is very understandable. So what he did, and we actually did this together, we got on it, we got to his office, and we just laid out those nine words. And we said, What do you think about eliminating these designs? Like, what are the ones that just don't make sense? Well, nobody wants to be loved by their lawyer scratch, right. The other one was, nobody wants to belong to their lawyer, scratch. Um, what was it? So this is a B2B lawyer. So he focuses on business law. And pretty much like nobody seeks to have greater freedom from their business lawyer, not many, at least, you know, I'm sure you can make the argument. That's one thing I would tell you, you could probably make an argument for any of these. But don't do that. Just go with your gut feel. What was great about what he did, Steve, is we got together, we eliminated all but one that's not usual, usually and eliminate five, six, maybe seven of these, like I knew, like I was pretty clear. I wanted to learn, like how to do marketing. Right. I think I was pretty clear on that. But technically, you know, looking back, did I want us to feel like a team? Yeah, so those were probably two he eliminated all but one, which was in this case control because businesses were going to him because they were in a situation where they needed legal protection or to be able to control some legal aspects of their business. So for him, he was like, we don't have to choose any I know all but one right now doesn't make sense. And that left him with that one, which is control.

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Yep. I think that's true. I think some people don't trust their gut feel. If you've been in your business for any amount of time, you kind of know which ones make the most sense. Yeah, you can get to secondary desires. But ultimately, pick one would be my goal, like pick one that you feel like ultimately, this is what people desire when they're interacting with me. And for him, it made sense control. For me, it made sense, competence. I wanted to be skilled, I wanted to be more skilled.

So in the law firm example, you started to map their business to provide that desire. What are some examples? Give us some insight on how you did that?

Yep. So I love what you said, because that's exactly what we did, just like you would do when you're onboarding a client. You say, Okay, what are all your customer touch points, right? When somebody a new client or an existing client, how do you interact with that client? It's usually through an email very rarely between phone calls, but they'll usually send an email and the lawyer will try to get them on a phone call if needed. And then it goes into, there's a series of emails that go back and forth, depending on what the issue is. And ultimately, there's probably going to be a sit down, where the lawyer sits down, not always, but where the lawyer sits down with their client to bring their legal expertise into some sort of a document. And then there's a follow up, are you happy? How are things going? So it's a very simple, we just literally laid that out and said, Okay, tell me about your typical business interaction. So what we did then was okay, well, there's also other interactions that he's not even aware of, which was marketing, he wasn't really thinking about the marketing, he does very little marketing he has a website, right? But I was like, well, that's a big part of creating that desire. So what your goal is to do, right, Steve, is that whenever you have this desire for competence, or for control, sorry, if you're that lawyer that you come to mind, not only one thing about legal professions, like your ultimate goal is when you have that desire, all of a sudden, for whatever reason, my lawyers head pops up, which is scary to think, but that if you're a business owner, you want to be associated with not your industry, you want to be associated with a desire. So I said, you need to think about your business and building these desires in two ways. One is marketing. One is actually how you interact with your clients, marketing is easy, you and I talked about this every week, there are psychological things you can do with your marketing, whether using words and visuals that help people feel like you understand their desire for control. We've talked about these things forever. So you can use the word control, and then let's just take that off the board, right? Because I think people can get there. If not, they should call you right, you can do that. I sat him down, cuz he doesn't do any marketing. So I said, let's just talk about your interactions. Because ultimately, what you want to do is the next time one of his clients thinks about Legal Zoom, I need that to say, well, Legal Zoom doesn't give me like the ability to control my interaction. Legal Zoom is a one basically a one way interaction, if you've ever used Legal Zoom, you basically go to a website, you download some copy of a typical contract or something, you may send it off to maybe one of their lawyers, the goal is for you not to interact with them at all. And then you get some documents, whether it's a will or you know, anything, a residential lease, whatever. So, look, if we know that their customers want control, I said, Okay, so let's talk about your journey. And where can you provide your customers slightly greater control. And one of the first easiest things we said was, okay, one of the hardest things, and he's my lawyer, right? So I kind of understand a little bit of this, I said, one of the hardest things to do is, I have a legal issue. But I don't want to write out this long email, because there's so much loss in translation, right? I probably just want to talk to my lawyer, I want to talk to him really quickly. It's a five minute call versus a 30 minute email. Currently, what I do is I send him an email, and then he sends me an email. Hey Will, great to hear from you. And I say, Hey, can we have a phone call? Yeah. When are you available? Here's a couple times I'm available, then I sent it to him? Well, I'm not available those times. How about this time? Well, I'm not available. So we go through basically a day and a half of this. That gives me no control. I'm out of control. I'm just like, man, please let us be able to, you know, find a day. What if we just created calendly link to his to his lawyers. So now I feel like I'm in control because I can set the appointment on my time. I know my calendar, I can look into through a calendar link. If you guys don't know what calendly link is right? You can access to somebody else's calendar and see where there's an area open, you set the appointments that goes back and gets rid of that back and forth. Not only is that just better business, there's less friction, you know, because by me booking that calendar invite, what if, when I was trying to dis email back and forth, trying to figure out when I can meet if a stupid Legal Zoom pop up came up and said, you know, maybe I can do this with that, right? That's right. Thank you very much, Joseph. So if that's the case, I created a mechanism inside the business to where that person feels like they're in control. And the more they're able to do this, the more they will associate their feeling of I have more control in this relationship with your law firm. Right? Very simple thing. We did just like, that's a very simple thing to do.

I love that because, you know, I was thinking, I'm feeling out of control, so I need a lawyer to help me gain control. But then I'm also risky, choose to help me gain control, but just that simple experience that you're describing is huge.

Yep. You know, a second one we came up with was and I noticed this usually what I pay for is for them to give me their recommendation and they're always very clear, hey, you can go in this direction. You can patent your IP or you can you know, they give me that but they always come down with the recommendation. I said, well, when you give me one option, which is basically take my advisor, or don't take my advice, that's not really giving me control. And I said, behind the scenes, I'm sure you guys are coming up with different, there are different things I could do. There are different ways of structuring contract. But they are, their goal was let's just make it simple, and I said, rather than make it so simple, where you don't give me control, you just give me an option. Give me two or three options, but then give me the recommendation. So well you go this A, B, C, we recommend C, because that gives me as the client the ability to control my destiny, I'm not just making a choice, I get to choose one, two or three, that simple thing, because they were doing it anyways, they were just eliminating some of the things that they were, hey, we're being professional for you. You don't want to go through this. I said, maybe I do. And maybe I don't have to go through it. If you just recommend me that. So the second thing I said that could provide your customers, your clients greater control, very simple thing we did.

I love that you while you're talking about that, I'm thinking about a book I read by another guy I do live streams with, Allan Langer. And in the proposal process, he's a seven secrets to selling more by selling less. Okay, you've probably been on his podcast. Well, anyway, in his book, he talks about in the proposal, he offers several options instead of here, here's one, take it or leave it. He offers, he calls it letting the air out. But what in effect he's doing is giving control to the person to decide on the direction they want to go.

Yeah, I love it. And I think you guys do it with your programs, right? You offer different options, depending and though you are, you're my guess is you are very much like Hey, why don't we just get you in the starter kit, right? Because that's our first interaction. But give me the ability for you, you're not going to turn down money. But what if you force everybody under the one thing which some people tell you to do, they tell you to only do one option, so you can migrate them into something else. I don't know if that makes a lot of sense. Unless your customers desires control, then you're not giving any control. You're basically mandating a choice. That's not control.

What I've noticed it will and this is great that we're having this conversation, but back in the day, the traditional default model for an agency like mine was, you know, we would just do a professional retainer on a monthly basis. That was the goal. That was what all the conversations were at the marketing conferences. But now, now you have three more a new model that's popping up with three choices that you offer. Do it yourself. Do it with you. Do it for you. And so in our journey that we've done with you what we've done, we've gone from the do it for you only model, and we're back building, we're deconstructing and becoming a do it with you, and do it yourself. Your book is a do it yourself.

Yeah, very much. I love that point. That's a great point. And that makes me, by doing that, do it together. It provides a sense of belonging. Like we're a team. I love Sam, I love Aaren, I feel like we're a team like we smile when we get on the phone. The first thing we do is we laugh. We talk about each other's weekends, like how many relationships would you love to have with your clients out there? When you start off your conversation with how your weekends were? How did that happen? Because we belong? We're in a tribe now. You know, I mean, you should join us on those calls. Those are good, actually Steve.

You don't want me in there, I just

Yeah, you may screw the dynamic

Yeah, let's just blame it on the COVID

And last thing, you know, I said, and this is, the last thing anybody could do is you can't have surprises. So legally, one of the worst things you can do is your job, oftentimes is to basically make sure that you're not getting a surprise lawsuit, or you're not being surprised in business. That's what this guy specializes in. And so I said, the important thing for you guys to do is over communicate with your clients, over communicate, because a surprise in any way makes you feel like you're out of control. So I said anything in the relationship where if you can't make your appointment, or which isn't usual, but if you're going to be late on a contract, you got to give more notice, because when you pop it on, say, Hey, we're gonna have that contract signing today. But you know, we need to delay that a few hours. Imagine if you're buying a home. And when that happens when you know, you're getting to sit down and all sudden, when your real estate agent says, Hey, we have to delay the home buying for a day. Remember what that does to your head? You're just like, What do you mean, I have all these other things. I've I've people moving my house I have painters. That's the kind of idea you want to avoid if somebody desires control. That's why I said you cannot surprise and if you do surprise, you got to give your clients upfront notice a lot of them for notice. And that was just by brainstorming. Imagine what he could do now thinking His job is only to provide more control to his clients. And by doing that, hopefully when his client decides I want to look at Legal Zoom, Legal Zoom makes you not feel any of those desires. He does and they're like, you know what, it's worth the interaction. It's worth the money. It's worth it because you know how it is Steve, we buy off of emotions, we buy things off our desires. And so you better know one of those nine desires and make every interaction possible tap into that desire.

So when we think of your clients in particular Will, I'm curious, so what, what the number one priority desire and number two second desire?

Yeah. For me it's two, I'm trying to help small businesses create marketing that is compelling to get, you know, I always say gets your customers to listen, care and act. So in that case, my number one goal, I think is or for my no more desire, my client, I guess, or small businesses is achievement, which is success, right? They opened up a business for the most, for most part, they're using marketing to bring in revenues. But the second one is a very close second, is control. I think that you want consistent results for marketing, I have this, and I've done it myself is where you send out like a post on LinkedIn or whatever. And you're just like, hoping that you know, somebody's going to call you somebody's going to interact with you. And I want to take those moments those those like, kind of lost my breathe or hoping and wishing that, you know, this new campaign, this new email, you know, three week email campaign is going to work. So I believe that control in small business, especially during times of COVID, is important. So for me, I'm really focused on helping my clients be successful, and I'm helping to help. I'm trying to help them control their marketing and the way that they do their marketing.

I love that. So Will, you've, in your book, your desires are actually called motivation. So you have a new book coming out that your first book is more designed for the bigger companies, right, your enterprise companies. And so you brought in a lot of the language that comes from your scholarly background. But now your next version of your book is more of the rubber meets the road version. So tell us a little bit of the thinking behind that and where you're going. And we want to start talking about this book that's coming out soon, right?

Yeah, we did. It's great. It was a transition that really happened for me, early to mid last year, where I saw, we were talking about this, in fact, saw many incredible small businesses losing everything for no fault of their own, you know, we talked about remember the pizza guy, right? The guy makes an incredible pizza. And he's going out of business, because he doesn't know how to market because all marketing has this crazy, you know, talk in Corporate America where you don't know exactly what marketing supposed to do. that drove me insane. Because it's very simple to do marketing, and use behavioral sciences to increase engagement and get the best and most impact on your marketing. So with that, I said, I looked at my book, and I said, even though I think it's a very practical guy, I think it's good. I know, it's helped people. But let's think if you didn't get an MBA, what if you didn't? What if you're that great pizza maker, and you've never gone to college? Well, there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to market. So this new book that's coming out, Selling To Mindstates is going to be even more practical using rather than turn on motivational psychology or just say, Hey, listen, there are nine feelings that people want. And we're gonna talk about direct pathways to get there, what types of words which can be much more applicable with more examples, like what I just gave you here with the lawyer. As opposed to the regular book, we went through one example, which is a great example. But it's one company, in the new book, we're going to use lots of different companies, financial services, real estate agents, hopefully restaurants. And I've already, I'm seeking out people to talk to an interview now. And how did they use these sciences to increase their revenues to get more impact out of their marketing, so it can be much more applicable and even easier to read.

So tell us a little bit about your workshop and what's going on there? And what's the future hold for it?

That's right. Can't wait guys, next week in fact, we are launching three programs from The Mindstate Group and we just, it's an evolution as we learn more from small businesses and what they need, and what you said we have a starter pack and a masterclass first off that you can sign up for and you can do it yourself Mindstate Marketing. So a starter pack is going to be one step in and then a masterclass is going to give you free access to hours of videos me training you how to become a science based marketer, right? The types of words you choose, etc. Then we also have a, we're calling The Partnership Program. So that would be example of you working with my team. So for a year we work together, we do audits of your marketing together, you have a full workshop with me, all day long workshop where I teach you these things, but we're gonna apply to your business so it's not video based. It's us, but you actually get all the videos from that masterclass. And I think in the future, we're also going to launch the professional program of some kind, that's when you may say, Will, we want your team to do everything for us. And that's when we will go do that research. We'll go build out your marketing for you and hand it over to you. So that's all starting to launch next week, really excited about it.

Man, that's exciting to think about, you know, this past year, everyone took a kick in the shin. To say it nicely, right? And you weren't exempt from that experience. And so look at you now. And it's like you regrouped, you re remodeled. And now you're coming back with a more focused portfolio or menu of things that you can offer to your audience to folks that you're wanting to serve.

And small business focus. You know, last year, it was much more or the year before it was these large corporations. Now we're very small business focused on everything we do.

So Will, this has been awesome. I've really enjoyed it, I always get so much I'm like, I'm the lucky guy gets to be on every single one of these. So folks, you've been listening to The Mindstate Marketing Hour, the author Will Leach has an excellent book that I highly recommend, Marketing To Mindstates. And it's how to use science to connect with your clients, so you can get more info at themindstategroup.com. And you can connect, Will, where's the best place to connect with you, and then kind of tease what's going on next week, if you haven't teed up?

I am ready for it. So yeah, connect with me on LinkedIn guys. But you know, if you go to mindsetgroup.com, and I have tons of resources, I have blog posts, and I have a weekly email that comes out that gives you these you know, cool trainings and things like that. So go to mindsetgroup.com, sign up for our email list, and you get all access to all sorts of free content and weekly emails. But, guys, this is cool. I love it. So I went to Texas A&M University, for my master's degree. And I'm lucky enough to be a part of a new program that they just started last semester. And it's a program that helps you get your Applied Behavioral Sciences degree, it's really applied behavioral economics certification. So if you're out there and a professional role, you want to learn more about behavioral sciences, not just from the marketing side, but also behavioral economics 101, and how to do great research and sales, you can actually go to Texas A&M and get certified in all of this. And our semester starts on Monday actually starts technically tomorrow. So if you want, if you're kind of thinking, Hey, you know what I'd like to get certified. I'd like to, you know, work with Texas A&M University professors and people like me experts in our field, it takes about a year and a half to get through it. It's on your time, lots of court courses, and electives. Go check it out. It's at the Texas a&m University's Human Behavior Lab. And the address of that is hbl.tamu.edu. And up there, you'll see certificate program or just reach out to me on LinkedIn, I will tell you all about it. It's a very fast, cheap way to learn all about behavioral sciences and how to impact your business, there are people from all around the world participating from big brands as well as even very small brands, a guy can't wait to talk to the guy who's a fire eater, no lie. And that his job is doing performances and he's taking it. So it is for big companies like Maker's Mark and Apple is going to be there but also for small companies that one man operation just wants to do much better business. So that is Texas A&M Human Behavior Lab, go to hpl.tamu.edu. And you will learn all about it. Come join now because it starts on Monday!

So do you think fire eaters, do you think they have bad breath?

No way the don't get COVID either. They can you can cough in their mouth. Done. Love them.

Will this has been excellent. I'm Steve Brown ROI Online is my agency and if you want your company to be produced, like we're doing with Will Leach then be sure to reach out. But stay tuned next week we got another awesome episode of The Mindstate Marketing Hour. And that's from Will Leach he's author of Marketing To Mindstates. Will be good. Stay in touch, do good work. All those good things and I look forward to our broadcast next week.

All right. See you next week, buddy.

All right. Thanks for listening to another fun episode of the ROI Online Podcast. For more be sure to check out the show notes of this episode, and feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn where we can chat and I can help direct you to the resources you're searching for. To learn more about how you can grow your business better be sure to pick up your copy of my book, The Golden Toilet at surprise thegoldentoilet.com I'm Steve Brown, and we'll see you next week on another fun episode of the ROI Online Podcast.