Oct. 5, 2020

[Special Episode] The Mindstate Marketing Hour #2 with Will Leach - The ROI Online Podcast Ep. 38

[Special Episode] The Mindstate Marketing Hour #2 with Will Leach - The ROI Online Podcast Ep. 38

In this weekly episode* of the Mindstate Marketing Hour, host Steve Brown of ROI Online, interviews Will Leach, author of Marketing to Mindstates, founder of Triggerpoint, and CEO of the Mindstate Group on why focusing on customers emotions and mindstates is key to successful marketing.

*Originally produced as a livestream video

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{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Steve Brown ","startTime":4.0,"body":"Welcome to the ROI online podcast. And this is a special series of interviews with will Leach. He's the author of marketing to mind states the practical guide to applying behavior design to research and marketing. And I'm your host, Steve Brown, the author of the funniest book on marketing the golden toilet, stop flushing your marketing budget into your website and build a system that grows your business. And then this series of conversations, we're going to explore everything about marketing, your messaging, and connecting with your clients, your customers, your employees. So come on, and join us. And let's have some fun. Welcome back, everybody to ROI online podcast to our special episodes with will Leach marketing to mind state series. Well, welcome.\n"},{"speaker":"Will Leach ","startTime":61.0,"body":"Hey, thanks for having me. Again, Steve. I'm looking forward to today's conversation.\n"},{"speaker":"Steve Brown ","startTime":65.0,"body":"So our last conversation, we really getting into talking about the aspects of marketing the mind states and how folks should be considering the state of mind that people are in when they're considering your product or service as a solution. You know, the biggest struggle I say, that leaders have is really clearly communicating is so hard. It seems like it's so easy, but it's not, it's really hard to clearly communicate what it is that you can do to serve the people that come to you looking for help. And so today, less, I think one of the things that's really I loved about your book is what you talk about higher order goals. I really got a lot out of this, it keeps you focused on the right things. So let's, let's spend some time and dissecting that. When did you have that epiphany? Why is it so important? And how can we start to really taken into consideration in our marketing?\n"},{"speaker":"Will Leach ","startTime":129.0,"body":"Yep. So it was an epiphany, because I think when I when I worked, and I learned through graduate school, I never heard about people's goals. It just never came up in my program. And so it came actually the idea of why goals are so important. It's it's it I'll talk about this for a small business owner, it's to really understand what job you're really in, like, what is your true business? What business are you really in? And the reason why I there I was over at PepsiCo. And of course, we talked about PepsiCo is that's where I learned a lot of this stuff. And we were talking about different brands of tortilla chips. So even at PepsiCo, we have three different or really had three different types of tortilla chips. And so you know, just under different brands, and you know, salt, summer flavor, it's our not summer to pseudo summer not. And then I do is like, well, if you think you're, if you're a tortilla chip manufacturer, if you think back to your job, why do you have three companies doing the same job? And it was this idea of thinking, well, because they deliver a different needs is what he's done needs dates, which are here, right? Well, they deliver different needs. And when I started looking at the need states, okay, so I got to figure out these needs these people have you very quickly going to a psychology called goal theory. And that's where you get into the academic side of what a really needs versus wants. And when I was trying to figure out how to differentiate different types of tortilla brands, it was using goal theory to think through what are the real needs that people have for tortilla chips, and then figure out how to my brand's uniquely satisfy those needs, not what people want, but what they uniquely need. And that's when you get into higher order goals.\n"},{"speaker":"Steve Brown ","startTime":231.0,"body":"So, when I think about that, and there was a quote, I heard the other day, and I can't remember where I heard it, but your real business you're in is not the service or product that you deliver. But it's the process and the experience that you deliver. With that. And when you started talking about higher order goals that started to really connect with me, because if we stay focused on those higher order goals, then our experience that we deliver, will compliment make it feel congruent and safe and they will feel more understood. How, how does that come into play?\n"},{"speaker":"Will Leach ","startTime":270.0,"body":"Yeah, so interesting enough on. You know it knowing what job you're really in. I'll give you I'll give you a story about a friend of ours, a family friend of ours. So this dude started a pizza place about two decades ago. And to this day, see, it's the best pizza I've ever had. I'm no secret. I actually do know a secret recipe. Finally he gave it to us. But he was in the pizza restaurant industry for about three years. shut down. And he made a kick ass pizza. It was a great, it was a great product, but he thought his job was creating the best pizza around. Yeah, looking back on it. Now, that's not his job. His job to your point was to create an experience based upon a higher order goal that people had. And he just so happens to deliver on that through an increase its crust was amazing. It is amazing. Through his pizza, and he thought he was in the pizza business, he was not in the pizza business. Looking back now that I know what he's doing. Like, if we could only you know, had this science back 20 years ago, I could have told him that actually, he's not delivering pizza, he needs to ladder that up to a higher order goal. Okay. So the way that works is this is that we all have goals in life. And a goal is simply defined as where you are today. And the distance from where you want to be in the future. And that future can be tomorrow, 10 years now, whatever. That's the psychological definition. So it's the idea of a goal is where you are today, and where you want to get to that later point. So the thing with goals that we all have goals, and we have lots of goals, by the way, and I want you to know, and everybody out there listening is every behavior, every decision you make has a goal associated with it. Every single one of outside of you touching a hot stove and having a biological reflex, there is a goal of some kind associated with it. But how often do you think through what goals like Well, when I turn on this light, what was my goal, or when I decided to go eat that go to go eat pizza? What was my goal, like nobody thinks about these goals, they're naturally subconscious, they drive you, but they drive all human behavior. So I would say if you don't understand the goals of your customer, then you are never going to be able to drive that behavior. And ultimately, you want them to call your call your phone number, engage with you online or whatever. So goal theory allows you to understand that, that like how do you drive people to go after your business to think of you. Um, there are two types of goals. And this is a simple concept. But there are things called functional goals and higher order goals. And you related you talk about the higher goals. Functional goals are the goals that people think about all the time, like small business owners, like my friend said, My goal is to have a great pizza is to enhance the quality ingredients. And my goal is to not over price myself out of the market. And his customers probably thought the same thing their functional goals what they want. great tasting pizza, close to home, good value, good menu variety. Okay, you deliver on that you are beat meeting the, in today's world, the bare minimum table stakes that a pizza place must make. Exactly. If you know that that's awesome. You got to do it. But that's not enough in today's economy.\n"},{"speaker":"Steve Brown ","startTime":476.0,"body":"Yeah, so that's, that's cool. You know, when people go, alright, what's your differentiator? You know, what's, what's the difference between your pizza and other guys? A lot of times, people don't have that conviction Really? Well, our, our, our flower comes all the way from Greece. And so it's focused on one little ingredient and, and salt. We use the salt from the GNC as a compliment, right? And as my okay. But that's based on the assumption that I'm looking for, I need pizza and I'm hungry, and I want to not be hungry. And I would like to have an above average, where I don't go this pizzas, okay, I want to say this pizza is great. But more importantly, there's other things going on, which is more the higher order goal in that conversation that we're neglecting and not not taking advantage of a great opportunity.\n"},{"speaker":"Will Leach ","startTime":536.0,"body":"And it's so easy. And frankly, back in the 60s and 50s, you could probably talk about functional goals and been fine, because you didn't have that many competitors. And that world is gone. Right? Yeah. You know, I just read an article that said we have over 31 million small businesses. This is as of late last year in the US right now. Now, you can gamble guarantee with the new economy that even more misery and open apps, you have a bunch of corporations who have had layoffs, and what are these people going to do? They're going to open up some kind of small business. So there's so much competition now that you can't just say my salt is from the GMC, not because not differentiated, but because it doesn't matter because somebody else has sold is from Greece, or Sony. Also salt is from Brazil, well, then how to differentiate salt, I don't know. I'm going to just go to something more meaningful.\n\nAnd that's where we get into those higher order goals that you just said. So remember, these ones, these functional goals value, I want it to taste good. I want to be close. I want the menu, variety. Those are all functional things. There's what people want. What we need to think about as small business owners is what do people need? Or what they really want? Right? That's Remember I talked about, like, needs based stuff back in PepsiCo, that's where small business have to go, like, what do people really need? Those are what's called higher order goals. It's really easy to get there, it's super easy to get. They're just not what people know about it.\n"},{"speaker":"Steve Brown ","startTime":622.0,"body":"So I read this story about Starbucks. Yeah. And I don't know how many they maybe 20 years, they they only had like, 17 locations, 20 years in. And now they have all these other locations, locations, but there was this moment where they declared, we don't have a coffee shop with beans from this area, we have a place where people come and get on the Wi Fi. And it's their second office, or it's their second living room. That's when I then it started to sink in. To me, that was the higher order goal that they were acknowledging.\n"},{"speaker":"Will Leach ","startTime":661.0,"body":"Yeah, now, and it's really easy to get there, right? So you could see the thought process, and actually, it's in the literature that tells you how do you get from a coffee shop, hey, we sell great coffee, or whatever, whatever they were saying back then to know we have the second office, and really what it is it comes down to two questions. So the way you do it is the way you get from these functional wants to emotional needs is first by saying what wants Do you have us ask your customers and they will say things like, okay, I want great tasting coffee, I want it you know, not to be overcharged, whatever all the North things you would say you would say about a coffee shop, then you say, why is that important to you? And then all of a sudden you get into why is it important for me to like, have comfortable chairs? Well, it's important have comfortable chairs. Because that way I can sit here for a while, and and not have not feel like I have to leave the restaurant. Why is it just ask the same question, why is that important to you? Why did you ask the same question twice. And then they say, Well, it's because this kind of like my office away from my office, my home away from home. That's the higher goal. When you start messaging that where your home away from home, no longer you competing against other coffee shops, you're competing against lots of different places like libraries that a lot of small businesses, you know, go to libraries, right to run their business, you're competing against now that you've opened up this incredible, huge kind of group of people that are think looking for a home away from home or an office away from home, you now become a part of that much bigger pie. That's what higher order goals allows you to do. So in the pizza place, right? My example, the pizza boy says, Hey, why don't you come to the pick? What are you looking for when it comes to pizza? Or pizza place? menu variety. They may say, hey, why is menu by Friday important? They may say, Well, it's so that, you know, we have the ability to where I can bring my kids in and we're not all fighting, we can agree upon something everybody can have something. Okay, why is why is it important for your kids to be able to agree on something, well, then there's less fights. And so we as a family can connect. That's the need. Your job is to provide a connection for people or place where people can connect, and you just so happen to do it through the use of pizza. And that's a part of your audience. That's how you differentiate your brand. If more people would talk about that, that just open them up against now I can, I can actually compete against museums to connect, I could compete against coffee shops, if I wanted to, I can compete lots of different things to get a place where my family can connect. And if small businesses will speak to those higher order needs, it opens up a massive amount of growth potential because you're meeting those emotional desires that driver behaviors ultimately, it's the driving behaviors comes from the higher Oracle.\n"},{"speaker":"Steve Brown ","startTime":826.0,"body":"So now, the marketers listening to this, or even the business owners having to wander into the swamp that scary stinky swamp of marketing, as I What do I do with this information and my marketing materials? Yeah, so I'm, I'm sitting here thinking of what images I would start to lead with I'm thinking of the faces. I'm even thinking how my logo should somehow complement that as well. Tell us some Tell us about that.\n"},{"speaker":"Will Leach ","startTime":860.0,"body":"Yeah. So what's interesting about goals and people get very nervous about how to act we call activation the goal. How do I activate on this goal? If I know that I want to be the home away from home or my customers want to be in the office away from their home or that they want to have family connection? I think sometimes we overthink think this stuff through a Steve. Here's the idea. If you want to activate that goal, if you want to get that goal to become important. You have to remind people that they have that goal, because we have lots of goals like I have lots of goals at the given day. So what you remind them is show them the end experience. That's the way you do it. So you can show through visuals or through copy. So for instance, rather than saying, We've got the great, we got great pizza, we've got great cheese or whatever, what you do is you show a family experience at your shop at your pizza store that feels like they're connecting. And so you do things like you'd make sure that you could, you could see that the Father and the kids are looking at each other in the face, right. And you could see, like maybe that they're, they're co holding a menu together, right. So they're ordering off a one menu, you can see that they're pulling the cheese together from the pizza, and there's laughter. So you're not you're not focused so much on the pizza, which is really hard. Because that's as a pizza maker. That's what you want to do. That's how you sell. That's what you sell. So you have to focus on the experience and the people. But imagine that's just marketing, imagine the experience that you'd actually make your tables smaller if you were if you had the money, and you want to actually lower ambient noise so that you can hear a conversation with your family. So it's not so loud, you wouldn't have rock music in the background, you'd have it lower than that you'd have the seats very comfortable. So people are smiling. That's how you bring this all the experience to the messaging. But the point the matter is remind people what that goal is, it's just simply showing the end result of that goal, the family is connecting.\n"},{"speaker":"Steve Brown ","startTime":977.0,"body":"Want to pause here just for a moment and talk to you about a program that we have just released called ROI quickstart Academy for authors. Every day, I talk to business owners just like you who struggle with quickly getting their fundamentals in place. We want to create a great foundation and we want to grow our business. But the things that are in our way, our lack of knowledge about the specifics, we should put in place, what kind of technology what kind of messaging and what kind of campaigns and that problem exists for authors as well. And we just chill so good with authors because, well, I'm an author, and I understand everything that you struggle with, you have a great idea you have a great book, but what do you want to do, you want to get your book in front of more people, you want to make it easy for them to find you learn how they can schedule a time to talk with you hire you for a conference, or maybe sign up for the services that your book promotes. So what is the Quickstart Academy for authors? Imagine working with a small group of like minded authors, and the experts from the ROI quickstart team, it's a great way to get your messaging clear to be confident with the technology in your marketing automation, and how to run a strategic campaign to get you more of what you want from the investment of your book. To learn more about the Quickstart Academy for authors, you can visit ROI online.com or click in the link in the show notes below. And now back to this episode. But also, I think a lot of opportunities are missed. When marking focuses on the copy only, or the content or the text. It's very important. It's a lot of the place that everybody starts first. But the things that you just talked about the atmospherics, the images are brain that that brainstem area is an area that doesn't even process language, so it doesn't even read the text. And in just a second, it is already made a decision whether this is a safe place what I'm looking for or not. That's where marketing the mind states is really being impactful.\n"},{"speaker":"Will Leach ","startTime":1123.0,"body":"That's right. And like you said, it's even subtleties that otherwise some people just take for granted. But imagine, you know if you're going to do your own photoshoot, but even just think about the smiles, like too much joy is not connection. So showing too much happiness in a space is actually no no actually connection is more about intimacy, which connection can be funny, but imagine, you know, showing a husband and a wife or a partner or whatever, and then looking directly into their eyes and having this moment like those things matter. There's small details, the smile, the the facial expression matters a lot. And I think if we can get everybody to think that marketing is not just showing your product, a great looking piece of pizza but also showing that experience but being mindful of those small little nuances that the book talks about that you can make a very big difference in a small decision about hey, let's get their faces a little bit closer to each other in the photoshoot because I really want to establish connection and good marketers and good agencies know how to do that they would intuitively know that stuff. My job is to tell you that they're science based evidence that says that is what you should be doing now.\n"},{"speaker":"Steve Brown ","startTime":1191.0,"body":"science based evidence actually telling us that it's okay with the kids drawing in that a gn salt The table. See, I mean, it's like to be able to show your product fitting in to their, their lifestyle that they're wanting to have. And maybe being a part of that and not like this, this extra energy they have to weave in somehow.\n"},{"speaker":"Will Leach ","startTime":1226.0,"body":"Yeah. And you know, you would know it as who's the hero in that whole space. And I think sometimes as as brands and as small businesses, we believe we're the hero, because we live in our hero that we feel like it's our product, we put our heart and soul in it. But really like, you know, this, right, it's your product allows the family or the father who decided to bring the family together, the mama decide, we're all going to go to the pizza place to be the hero, and the pizza just allows for that moment. And if you can be associated with a moment of like, you met a need, like a real need, they'll come back to you again and again and again. So I think that's one of the hardest things to do is, is when you have such a passion for your business, that you want to talk about you and how good you are. And, and ultimately, what that really does is it puts you in a place that you're devalued what you want to do this that was that I know you need, I can help you get to that need. But it's a hard transition to make. But once you make it, it becomes natural sales just start flowing. Just because you mean something more to your to your customers than you did before.\n"},{"speaker":"Steve Brown ","startTime":1286.0,"body":"Reminds me of a commercial and I don't know if it was Johnson and Johnson or PNG, but they had this, this commercial showing the little kids, little kids stumbling around trying to get them dressed in the laundry room, the moms trying to help they're falling down and cry and then learning to walk and you seen him skate and do these things. But in the background, is the mom performing the functions of managing a family, right? And then all of a sudden, all of a sudden, you see this female skier just burst over the horizon of a mountain in a race. Right?\n"},{"speaker":"Will Leach ","startTime":1327.0,"body":"for that? I think I remember that. Yeah,\n"},{"speaker":"Steve Brown ","startTime":1329.0,"body":"yeah. It's like real emotional actually is like one of the commercials that got me a little wound up because you could see the hopes and dreams of that mother, and all of the ups and downs of the kid falling and learning and doing all these practice sessions and crying and being sore and taking that sweaty thing off. And yet, that was the higher order goal being really, I mean, that was a beautiful representation of what you're talking about.\n"},{"speaker":"Will Leach ","startTime":1358.0,"body":"And that's why you had that emotional response. You just said so much. Every brand and many brands don't do it. Like you can name the brands. And it's only one offs. But those brands, you'll remember that commercial the next five years because of that, right? Because it tapped into that higher order goal that all moms have, which is like I want my child to live to their fullest their dreams their fullest, you know, and if you could tap into that, that's why you cry. That's why you cry in movies, right? It's all it's all based in science. I love that example. Because they could have talked about we're cleaner, we all those great things we all know, we supposed to make things cleaner, that's great. But you'll never remember, you know, a laundry detergent ad that talks about how much we're two times wire. like nobody knows that nobody.\n"},{"speaker":"Steve Brown ","startTime":1398.0,"body":"They could have bragged your your kids jerseys in me two times brighter as they lose that. Yeah. But Alright, so that's great. And I'm a small business owner, I run a maybe I run a fencing company or some sort of roofing company, and I don't have the luxury of an in house marketing army that are already acclimated to this. How can I take advantage of it being a being what you said 31 million businesses? Yeah, we're one of those. What do you do?\n"},{"speaker":"Will Leach ","startTime":1432.0,"body":"Yeah, so I actually just had this conversation with a company that today is, in fact who they manufacture roofing accessories, right? So nothing, you'd say super sexy. They have. He writes all content. He's kind of the head of marketing, if you will, and he has two other people belong, right. But it's like 100 million dollar company. It's a big company, but they just they don't their manufacturer. So he asked me the exact same question. And what he does have is an email list that he said, Well, I'm scared. Well, that may be that different section, or different groups on my email list have different higher order goals. Like you should believe that that's probably true, right? So the first thing, what we've been told to do is like, you need to get some basic information from your customers. And in the case of him, he has an email list. He says, you know, it's a b2b list. And so he's like, you know, we did pretty good response. Like, I think I can actually just ask some of the questions. I said, it's very simple. There's actually just two questions. And I've actually talked to you already about these things. Dave, I got the number question. You asked me both. Hey, as it relates to you buying roofing accessories, what are you looking for? That's the functional Just ask them, what are they looking for? Just give me a list and let them write out that list and then just ask them, Hey, and if you can get on the phone, you do an email if you wanted to, and say, Hey, on that list, tell me why those things are important to you. Don't write something down. And then the third question is, now tell me why that's important to you. So it's basically three questions total. If you do it on the phone, it's even better because I think people like I just answered that question kind of feel a little bit uneasy. But it's three questions. That third question, right? Why is that important to you write that down, or have them write that down. When you look at maybe about 20 of those TV, you have just 20 interviews, you'll look at those, you'll start seeing patterns, the, okay, they're really two higher order goals across 20. Now, if you do it 100, that's even better. But you may find three patterns. That's the thing you have to do. Because now you start sub segmenting your emails, you can start thinking about tailoring your offerings, your marketing, your brochures, your content, teachers, for the roofing guy, one one was their hiring, our goal is to make sure that that roof is so well done, that they're the commercial owner of the building is not going to come back to them and say something was wrong. So their higher goal is just don't come back to me like it's got to be done. Right. Another one he thought is he there's a group of roofers out there that are they want the most innovative products because they want to be seen as as innovative in the industry. Totally different goals. So now, you talked about your same roofing accessories, what about how technologically advanced they are. So that's now you can start segmenting your your email list based upon that one criteria, and you have a tote, same roofing accessories, but the way you position your those accessories could change, it's based upon three questions only just collect them, aggregate them into those groups.\n"},{"speaker":"Steve Brown ","startTime":1606.0,"body":"Well, I can see where in the sales process, if that is, if your marketing exercise had gone through that, then you would start to tailor your sales process of asking the questions to identify Are you in your in Group A or B, then based on the discernment there, then we would start to tailor our sales message to complement that.\n"},{"speaker":"Will Leach ","startTime":1632.0,"body":"That's exactly where he took it. And I didn't naturally say cuz I'm a marketer. But that's exactly what he said. He's like, it would be so much easier if he has big contracts and huge commercial buildings. And that's where he took it to. And I think it's the natural way, I think this stuff works even better. In one to one relationships, when you're really talking to somebody in these really big projects, imagine the proposals you would write to that person, very different feel if you understood that his real goal is to see feel felt as innovative. Versus he's trying to make sure that he has no hassles.\n"},{"speaker":"Steve Brown ","startTime":1662.0,"body":"Yeah. So what have you have some workshops? And these were, who are these workshops designed for? Would they be a good fit? Or do you have two versions of your workshops? One for the higher order go here and one for the other higher order bill?\n"},{"speaker":"Will Leach ","startTime":1680.0,"body":"Yeah, no, you know, so the workshops that I put on, goals are just one element. And therefore really small bit Swamy businesses, or agencies who are trying to think through how do you use the sciences to make our content and our messaging better. So goal theory is just one element of a two day process takes about an hour, hour and a half. But what we do is we actually make you as a participant go through this activity yourself. And you do it one time, based upon a scenario where I give you the data. So I have data that I've done it for another company, and we all go through that data together. So those questions I just asked you, Steve, yeah, we we look at the data only over a big 20 people and we look at the data together, we come up with the goals and then we move on to the next stage. So it's really too as over the course of two days to walk you through my data. But then I actually have homework assignment by getting out tomorrow before you come in tomorrow, I want you to do it for your company. And we're going to talk about that so what we found in fact with this roofing manufacturer, also the accessory manufacturer, is that he went through the activities himself and he came up with this one goal and then when we talked to together he's like you know well now that I talked to you it's another it's slightly the first time you've ever done it and we got to a different place so it gives you the chance to try it out yourself but still pressure tested with all these other people in a room or online with experts in this and then we can show you oh you want to modify and he was so thankful because he's gonna release a brand new product in about three weeks and he literally on the spot start changing his we looked at the launch email back and we started tweaking the messaging right there on the spy, it was a really cool experience to to watch that come together and just through a more structured way of thinking about messaging, especially goals. So\n"},{"speaker":"Steve Brown ","startTime":1788.0,"body":"this is like the great place to start. If there was one thing out of your book that someone could adopt and immediately make an impact it would be this acknowledgement and discernment of the higher order goals of the folks that you're wanting to serve, or be a part of their lives. Really. That's awesome. And so the next, our next conversation is going to cover what? Well,\n"},{"speaker":"Will Leach ","startTime":1813.0,"body":"yes. So today we talked about goals, which is really just think about where people want to go. But remember, you also think think it is you need an engine or fuel to get people to keep going after that goal. That's called motivations. It's a simple concept. But you can even amplify the the effectiveness of your messaging by incorporating what we call motivational psychology, but I'm going to show you about I'll talk to you about that next week. But it's basically how to amplify people's desire to go after their goals.\n"},{"speaker":"Steve Brown ","startTime":1843.0,"body":"Awesome. Well, where can people reach out to you connect with you hire you participate?\n"},{"speaker":"Will Leach ","startTime":1852.0,"body":"Excellent. You can learn everything you want to learn whether it's workshop, or you want to buy the book, it's on my website, mindset group comm if you want to have downloadable papers, we've got case studies, we've got all sorts of free resources as well to learn more about the business. But ultimately, mindset group comm is the best way to interact and LinkedIn is a great way to is I do a lot of I do a lot of posts on LinkedIn to try to get the message out.\n"},{"speaker":"Steve Brown ","startTime":1876.0,"body":"Yeah, so marketing the mind states the practical guide to applying behavior design to research marketing. It's not just touchy feely, there's science will Leach can blind you with marketing science. Well, thanks for being on the ROI online podcast today.\n"},{"speaker":"Will Leach ","startTime":1894.0,"body":"Hey, thank you very much. See you next week.\n"},{"speaker":"Steve Brown ","startTime":1897.0,"body":"All right. Thanks for listening to another fun episode of the ROI online podcast. For more, be sure to check out the show notes of this episode. And feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn where we can chat, and I can help direct you to the resources you're searching for. To learn more about how you can grow your business better. Be sure to pick up your copy of my book, The Golden toilet at surprise, that golden toilet.com I'm Steve Brown, and we'll see you next week on another fun episode of the ROI online podcast."}]}