[Special Episode] The Mindstate Marketing Hour #20 with Will Leach - The ROI Online Podcast Ep. 92

Welcome to the ROI Online Podcast and this is a special series of interviews with Will Leach. He's the author of Marketing To Mindstates, the practical guide to applying behavior design to research and marketing. And I'm your host, Steve Brown, the author of the funniest book on marketing The Golden Toilet, stop flushing your marketing budget into your website and build a system that grows your business. And in this series of conversations, we're going to explore everything about marketing, your messaging, and connecting with your clients, your customers, your employees. So come on and join us and let's have some fun. Will Leach, so I have a question for you Will. Do you wear how shoes or did you put on shoes and socks for this episode?

Holy cow. I love that you said that because I am actually most times house shoes here, for Christmas I got three pairs, we talked about that, right? These big three pairs of socks. I got the gold toe socks. I'm really excited about those. Today, I drove Nicholas to school, which means I'm wearing my boots. Normally I am totally big fluffy sock guy. That's my one outlet.

Yeah, well, I realized that I do most of my work now in, these were from my son. They're comfortable. But yeah, if you gotta get in the car, you can't wear your house shoes. Unless

I'm wearing the boots today. I'm wearing the boots. But normally I don't man. And that's that's one of the nice benefits of working from home. It's funny you said that because I've been thinking about in like client meetings, just everybody, just like you said, everybody right now, what are you wearing? But then you know, that can get a little awkward to see people's feet and stuff. So I don't know if I'm ready for that. But I thought about that. I thought about that as an icebreaker to most meetings haven't done it yet. You're pretty ballsy to do that today.

So you're listening to The Mindstate Marketing Hour with Will Leach. He's the author of one of my favorite books Marketing To Mindstates. That's right. And I like to say this book is how to use science for good to connect with your clients. But guess what we're talking about today? We're talking about how to use mimicking to connect better with your, I'm looking for the title, using mimicking to win customers trust and goodness. Hence, the house shoe question.

I like that. It's a nice setup there my friend. Thank you. Yes, mimicking you know, it's this idea of matching your customers disposition. And I learned about this actually years ago for the first time when I first started Triggerpoint and the importance of doing this, so I don't know if you know this Steve, but when I first started Triggerpoint in year two I decided I wanted to go agency side, Oh what, that was not, what a nightmare. I tried it and I was like ah not for me. Because I found it's a tough business on the agency side being consultant I get to just talk about ideas agency guys, you guys have to do work so but I went in that space and we had a real, so I had to find a creative director copywriter etc. And I just so happened to hit it off with this guy, local guy. And we our personalities were awesome. Like we just connected first time ever meeting him was the day before actually going to a major client, flying to a major client and pitching a deal. And we got to know each other went there pitch the deal, flew back, we won the deal. So my first time my first ever pitch on the agency side, yes, we won this deal. We're going to do some major work with them. Right? So and the way we did we just connected in the office, we're talking to this client and just everything's going great. So about three weeks later, he invites me this guy, my crib director, invites me to lunch. Now this guy had his own company he just started his own shop really small shop and we go to lunch and I'm like excited about this thing. I don't know where meeting I just you know friends and I remember he got, I said man I think it's time now we got to get this thing in writing let's fill out a contract right now to join our businesses. And as much as I love this guy, he said he already met with his lawyer, this way we're gonna do it. He had set up all these terms and he caught me off guard by doing that. And what happened it wasn't like an aggressive, like mean aggressive but it was an aggressive move on me because he had never prepped me and you know me, I'm a little bit more introverted like I I'm a bit pessimistic with business. And when he did that, it caused me to kind of pull back a little bit. I remember not finding the words, right? Because he's my friend. And I didn't know what to say the words I said, Yeah, I gotta talk to Melanie, I gotta talk to Melanie about it. I just want to get out of there as fast as I could. And he wasn't doing anything wrong. But his disposition his style was, let's go do this, let's get this company, we just won a major counter first pitch, this behavioral science thing is amazing. Let's consummate the deal with a contract where he was gonna take 40% of the business, the whole thing. And I remember walking away, feeling like really kind of mistrust. I don't know why I was just like, this doesn't feel right, hy was this guy so aggressive on this? And because of that, I remember reflecting the same person two weeks ago, when we're out in Virginia together, winning business I loved and in this one moment, I lost trust in him, not because of anything you said, but his style. And the way he approached me. And then through that, I thought, I wonder what would have happened, if he read the situation better? If he knew me a little bit better and understood that I need for something as major as that you got to kind of ease me into it, you and me Steve, you eased me into your, remember we talked about this? You ease me into your company. And if he would have gone just a slightly slower, we may have a totally different company right now. And so that's what I want to get you guys to think about out there on LinkedIn land, is that or on YouTube writing for humans watching this right, is your disposition matters a lot. And you want to be thoughtful and I'll teach you a very simple way to do it. But being thoughtful about how you interact with your clients, or you're hope to be soon client, can matter a lot with whether they trust you or

You know, you were saying so usually I'm, I'm not. introverted, and I need that you were describing the cautious achievement state of mind. And he missed that very important point.

That's right. He did. And because of that, through his just natural personality, he lost the business. And we were together through that project. And then we never worked again, because I actually pulled away because I never recovered from that moment, you know, and he tried to come back. He was always like, well, the lawyer wants to know when we're gonna do this. And I was kind of pausing because I was I didn't want to, you know, screw up, I realized we had a big client, we just landed and we never recovered from that man. It was from one lunch, one lunch, but he didn't read the situation really well. So yeah, it matters, man. It matters.

I'll tell you, so I've thought about this a lot, you know that you can have all these great conversations, sales conversations and it's totally logical why they should sign up with you, do what you're wanting, but they don't. And I've always, you know, done a debrief later and go like, what did I miss there? And it was something I call illogical but it was highly important. And it was the state of mind and how they were feeling, they didn't feel for whatever about that we can analyze yours, but you didn't feel safe with as like, wait a minute, where'd this come from? We needed to date longer than just get married.

Yep, no, it's a it's a great point. Remember, guys, we make emotional decisions and post rationalize them with evidence, with something to make us feel better about our emotions. In this case, he didn't read the emotion. And I couldn't figure out the rationalization of why I should do this. He caused me you know, fear a bit without even realizing, certainly some anxiety. And so remember, you are first an agent of emotion. And you have to read your clients emotion and emotional states. And so yeah, and when you do that you can build great trust, or when you don't do that, well and I'll tell you some funny stories about times when I haven't done that so well, where I've lost trust, even with my own customers, because I didn't even like kind of eat my own food, if you will.

So when you say, I love this statement, your first an the agent of emotion. Help me connect what agent means in this?

Yeah, the point here is that we like to think of ourselves, all of us in business and in life as kind of rational, thoughtful beings that are constantly in tune with what's important to us, what makes us tick, what are our beliefs? And we're kind of always thinking through all of our decisions. But what if I told you that you make 35,000 decisions on any given day like 35,000 over 6000 food decisions, research has shown are made by you every single day. I know that doesn't make any sense. But it's shown that it actually is true. When you think of yourself as trying to do cost benefit analysis of 600 or 6000 food decisions on a day. You're not doing that. So what are you doing? You're using emotions to help you navigate the day. That's what I mean by being an agent of emotion. You are primarily being run and driven by your emotions. And then you post rationalize how you're feeling and the decision you made emotionally with some sort of evidence so that if somebody was to question you, or if your conscious self wants to better understand why you made the decision, you have rational reasons to do that. That's why we say the marketing has to be able to be both be emotional, and rational, you have to have both, I think, in most marketing, you got to have both.

So if we're using mimicking when customers and trust, so if I'm like watching how you sit, If I'm trying to focus in mimic your body language, or whatever I'm exiting, the emotional part of the conversation talking. So if we're focused on those things, it makes them feel weird.

That's right. So this is a common thing that I've heard in sales all the time, that when you, when your customer folds their hands and backs up, you should do the same thing. If they're smiling, If you're scratching your head that you know you should be, you should be mimicking them from a physical I am telling you right now, that is creepy. And not only is that creepy, but there's nothing in the behavioral sciences that says that that really works. I'm sure it works on accident but when you tried to replicate results like that, from the Behavioral Sciences, literature, replicating the physical mannerisms of somebody doesn't work, it doesn't show that it's consistently working at all. So don't get caught up in that whole thing of trying to wear the same color tie as what your client is wearing, or kind of doing their same mannerisms because, we're actually remember creatures of emotion, Steve, like your body. Remember, when we were kids, and then somebody's copying you? And all sudden you pick up on it, you get mad, you're stuck. I didn't say Yes, you did. No, I didn't say that. And then you're going through this whole thing. It's the same thing. But is it adults, we don't say it. But we know that we're being copied. So mannerisms, don't do that. There's nothing that shows in the paper of science literature that it really works. If you think it works, it probably happened on accident. So don't do physical mannerisms. The second thing I don't want to ever do, is trying to mimic the personality of the person as well, disposition is different than a personality. So because that's also very weird. So let me give you an example of when I, it's awkward man. But I'll tell you the story of when I tried to mimic, if you will, the personality of somebody and it just bombed. So a couple of years ago, I was asked to do a conference, a big big conference to speak on stage. We talked about mindstate marketing. So the night before the conference, there's this speaker dinner where they brought all the speakers together. And this was a marketing conferences on digital marketing. And Steve, I'm gonna show my age here, I had have been four times the average age of anyone there, right, it was embarrassing. I always I remember, I'm not gonna tell you the conference, because I thought was a great conference. But one of the speakers look all of like 21, maybe 22 and was drunk on stage. But it was this conference, it was cool, because it was digital marketing. Anyways. So I go to this dinner and all these young people, and they're in the digital space, you know, they're all cool. And they're kind of, they've got their their long beards the whole thing. So I remember sitting there and actually went to go sit and I sat by myself because the table, there's two tables, and I was that awkward guy who had to start the next table like because I was right in the middle, right. So I had to start the next table. So I felt awkward anyways, and I was trying to fit in. So I remember, I took off my jacket and I rolled up my sleeves. And I untucked my shirt, because I was trying to figure out a way to, you know, look terrible, man, right? So I remember this guy comes over, he owns this massive company. I won't name the company, massive company, that was hosting the entire the entire show. And he's asked me about mindstate marketing. He loved the book, want to learn more about it. And I remember that I was asking him about what he does. And I remember saying this, something to this point, like, Yo, man, what you do is amazing man. And I remember he looked at me, and he was probably in his mid 20s. I'm sure he's multimillionaire, whatever. And I remember that weird look of when he just looked at me, like, what are you doing? And I remember literally, I felt so stupid. And so I remember I got from the table, you know, he was very nice about it, whatever. But I knew that I had overstepped my bounds in going into his world and trying to pretend like I'm like him and using his words, his mannerisms and trying to talk about technology. I had no idea and I remember when I was trying to talk about his technology, and I could tell that he was being really nice to me, but he could tell I knew nothing about what he was doing. And so I remember walking out it was raining. It was in the Pacific Northwest and it was cold. And I remember walking out with my jacket and everything myself, that was so dumb, because what he wanted for me is to be myself, he was coming to me because he wanted to learn about me and my personality. And what I did was, I thought I needed to figure out who he was and his personality, and everything was fine. I remember thinking myself how awkward that was for him, because I was trying so hard to look and feel like him. So don't mimic people's mannerisms and don't try to mimic their personality or anything like that, because it comes across as disingenuous. And of course, we can pick up that emotionally when people are being disingenuous we actually most times can tell for we don't may not be able to identify why, but there's something off with them. And so I walked away from that saying, Man, we have to do better at really trying to, you know, initiate and what I would say the last thing I'll say on this Steve, is sometimes they say well just be yourself, just be yourself. That's not good either. I almost said the guy's name, the guy who lost his trust on me, he was being himself, and he lost out on a major deal. So I don't think it's just always being yourself. It's understanding being yourself, but knowing your customer and their disposition to business, and just either toning yourself down, or toning yourself up. But just modifying slightly your own personality and your own quirks to better fit with how this person's disposition is in business.

I got embarrassed you telling that story. And I'm giggling because you were still in that zone where you could almost still be cool there. But I love your story. I'm, you know, I'm past the deal where it's like, Steve, you don't have any hope. So I'm calm. Right? But when you talk about the secret is mimicking your customer's natural disposition in business. Help me get more clarity on what's natural disposition?

Yeah. So there's only going to be two natural dispositions that everybody has in business, right? And the first one is, you know, in my book, we call it the optimistic, they're optimistic in nature. But these people are eager, right. So in business, imagine that person in business, who is a little bit more eager with wanting to do business a little bit more open with their personal life, they are going to be more open to ambiguity, they like the excitement of the deal. So these people are just optimistic in nature friendlier in nature, eager to get to the next place with you, etc. So when somebody has a natural disposition in this way, they love bigger ideas, they love for you to follow up with them and say, Hey, I got an idea I want to run past you, right, because ideas matter a lot with somebody who's in that optimistic, eager disposition in business. So that is the first one you have to kind of naturally know a little bit about. The second one is equally as important. There are other people, and this is a little bit more like me, who's a little more cautious, in the book we talk about it being cautious and reserved when it comes to business, doesn't matter about their personality, it's about when it comes to business. So this type of person is going to be asking more questions of you, especially when they first meet you, they're gonna want you to be more methodical with them. They don't like to have surprises. Maybe when you're first trying to pitch business, they're gonna ask for a lot more case studies, and give me more proof points and case studies and literature so I can feel more comfortable with you. For the most part, it's not because they're actively looking to read all that stuff, Steve, I don't think most people read all those case studies. But it's the sheer fact that you have case studies, that you have literature, that you have documents that look professional, and that are very kind of methodically built, it provides a sense of comfort for somebody who's a little bit more cautious and a little bit more reserved. So those are the two natural styles in business. And you need to identify which or maybe it's where on the spectrum somebody is and try to match that. This guy who sat me down for lunch was very much optimistic and eager. He wanted to build a business with me, he was excited about this. I'm more reserved, with my business a little bit more cautious. And so when he went after me, and tried to kind of do this optimistic and eagerness and let's sign the deal, my lawyer, I mean, he'd already had conversations with the lawyer and that's the part that got me, that was a part that was weird to me that he was already talking about our business with a lawyer without ever approaching that idea with me because well, just what we all do in agencies is what you do, you get the document set up, we sign it and we go make a bunch of money. If you would have known that I was a little bit more cautious and reserved. You never would have had that conversation with me, certainly wouldn't have told me that he was meeting with others about my business. Never have done that.

Wow. Yeah. So what are some of like the, it would seem obvious, but even I miss it sometimes. But if I'm talking to someone that's optimistic and eager as a potential client, I'm more cautious and reserved. I struggle a little bit to connect with them, to be the optimistic and eager and over promised a little bit or, you know, I struggle in that area. So what are some of the signs that we can look for? Because sometimes I see something that I don't trust my initial, am I just, Is it too simple that he's optimistic and eager? What are some things I can look for to confirm that?

Yeah, so first of all, I like where you went, you said, that there's a gut feel, or there's a there's, there's something I think you should trust your gut feel. Now I think what you have to do is be methodical in when you're talking, especially when you first get to know your client or a prospect to sit there and say, is this person eager and optimistic or cautious and reserved? So you should have that kind of just put it on a, you know, on a post it note, and just take notes or kind of in your mind, think about this, your intuition is going to tell you it really is now it may not be perfect, I'm not expecting this person is only cautious, there's going to be a different level, right or a balance, right? Some people are going to, you know, kind of show you both sides of them. But use your gut feel first, because your gut feeling your intuition is the best signal of whether somebody is reserved or whether somebody is really open to new ideas. The second trick I've done actually, Steve is this, especially on very early calls before we get to know each other, open yourself up, open yourself up a bit and talk about maybe a personal story or your personal life. Now, I think when you and I first met, I didn't do that initially it took a little bit of time, right? So let's say if you would have talked about, Hey, you know, my kid or whatever talked about, Where do you live? Tell me about that, tell me about your life. I would have rejected that probably, we're not ready to do that. Right? You would have known if I were to try to push the subject fast or did the arbitrary Well, I'm married with a child, I live in Dallas, if that's all I talked about, that would probably show you a very first signal of he's a little bit more cautious. He's waiting to see whether I've earned that trust, I can open up about my real life. So I think a really important thing to do, if you are trying to struggle with that is ask or open up your own life, where you feel comfortable with, Steve, and that's comfortable for you. And see if they take that bait and open themselves up, if they open themselves up and talk a little bit more about their life, especially if they use the first name of their family. You see, I talked about Melanie now and Nicolas to you? First time we ever talked I'll tell you I never did that man, I never would have done that I would have talked about my wife and my child wouldn't given first names. So it wasn't until I use first names, that's when you kind of know, Okay, we're starting to build this trust. And so he's moving away from being reserved, and he's more open to kind of, swinging a little bit more into that optimistic, eagered stage. So then, a second thing I do, so initial conversation 2 post it notes, open myself up a little bit, talk about my personal life, see if there's any reciprocity. The last thing that I could tell you to do before just trust your gut feel was, How much evidence are they asking from you to prove that you should do business together? Again, it's the case study idea. Now, if this person is eager, and you're eager as well, and you guys are connecting, they're going to be oftentimes less needy of, I need to have some references, I need to have a couple of case studies, where can I learn more about you? All that kind of stuff. They're gonna be less than any of that. Now, if this person is more reserved, they're going to ask for that stuff. Again, not necessarily because they're going to read all of it. But it's the sheer fact that you have people who will talk about your business in a positive light, that you have references that you have case studies of somebody like me, that makes somebody a little more cautious in nature reserve feel like Yep, you're kind of like me, you have these things ready to go when needed. So when they first start asking for that very first pitch, or whatever, if they're asking for a lot of things and it's not perfect in every case. But if they're asking for a lot of details, that's a signal that they're cautious. They're trying to feel whether or not you are worthy, I guess of their business.

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Yep. So the first thing I would do in that paperwork is talk about how we are going to build it together. Like I wouldn't come back with the exact answer. If somebody is eager and optimistic, they oftentimes are looking to cobuild they want to take the best ideas from everybody. So I would be less specific about the process, I will take you from A to B, and talk about Yeah, there's a process, but we're gonna work together to modify it for you. Somebody who's more cautious and reserved, Steve, is less open to this idea of ambiguity, right, they're more cautious. So they're gonna be more likely to say, I want to know how step one gets me to step two, step three, step four. And of course, they have a chance to modify, but I would not talk a lot about us building it together, having a system in place will help somebody who feels a lot more cautious, feel more comfortable with you. Um, the second thing I would do if I was an optimistic is I would talk about the vision first, like, here's the ultimate vision, I think working with me and us together will get us to, and I will be focused on that optimal vision in the future, where if I was cautious, I would quickly talk about that, but I would start late, let's say was a five year, in five years I'm going to grow your business 20 X, I would say, in five years 2006. But now let's talk about year one, because somebody who's cautious wants to know in getting the details and doesn't want to think so much about five years out, they want to know within the first year. So I would be thinking about more or less if I was optimistic and trying to talk to that person, very focused on the ultimate vision of us working together. In the end result, wherever that end result is whether it's six months now or six years from now. And the last thing I think I would do on a proposal is I would give different options, and then different alternatives to working with me. Again, somebody who's optimistic, and eager, they want to put their skin in the game, they're gonna want to be, they're more open to new ideas, they want to build things together. So you can't be so rigid and say, this is the only process, you could say, here's our recommended process. But we have options for people like you who blink, blink blink. So I think in my proposals, I would let them very much kind of feel that they are also a little bit in control on this and that we're going to be doing this together, I can bring my best ideas out to get us to a great place. The other side, the cautious reserve, I'd be less open to that, I would be saying we have three options. Here are the three options, A, B, and C. And it's okay to recommend maybe an option, but I don't think I'd give them this customization idea. I wouldn't be focused as much on that. So like I said, I don't know if it's, I think it's about emphasis Steve, of you know, are you gonna emphasize the big vision or not emphasize it? I think it's about where you placed emphasis. And I could totally see a proposal being slightly different for one versus the other.

What would you do as far as images? would you use more images in the optimistic, eager version less images? How would you coach someone in the image? Or the creative side of that?

Yeah, you know, so images, I think are, you need images throughout, images will still make somebody feel who if they're cautious, and maybe reserved, the images would still be meaningful to them. It's the types of images you would use. So we know from regulatory fit theory, in the book, and the work that I do in the book around approach is that if you are optimistic and you're eager images that have expansive viewpoints, meaning I use this example of sky and open fields, right, because what happens is when you see expansive settings in an image, your mind if you're this eager person will start to imagine themselves into this space and create what their visi n is. Right? So I always use hings like expansive skies, I us things around like showing ener y, like a sun or showing ener y moved from the middle of an o ject out from left to righ , blue skies. I would even say o so far as not framing your visual Steve. framing actu lly, the actual corners havi g corners on a frame is actu lly for people, it would be bet er for that type of person who s in that cautious state of min . So having corners this ide of Cardinal orientation wou d actually be more useful for Somebody in that cautious kin of reserved. So let's go to cau ious, if you know your guy is c utious, or you're the girl that you're trying to sell to is ca tious and reserved, you images are gonna be different. You want to have not expansive images, you want to have focus d images on very specific thin s. So let's say is your proce s, your process, you wan to be very focused on that rocess, eliminate any ba kground images, so they're focus d on just the process that you re laying out, or if somebody i more cautious, you want to f cus in on a specific moment of an action is taking place, wha ever that action is, versus s owing the background. So focus atters for somebody who's caut ous, they don't want to see a l the ambiguity behind it, they don't want to see, you know, ki d of this space. So even this s ace right now that you're lo king at is really focused on m you see books over this si e over here, you see my Gandalf he gray right here, you see pic ures of my family. optimistic, r ght? But if you came in a ittle bit closer, and we're d ing a visual like this, this wou d make somebody who's cautious, feel more comfortable with you

And so for optimistic, eager, then we're going to have more open expanse, we're going to have things that help us envision us successful or achieving in the future?

That's right, and like the entire environment and what that achievement will bring to somebody, right. So if somebody has an optimistic and eager state of mind, they want to see all the M, all that kind of the openness because they will start imagining themselves in that moment. And taking where you see my books, their books, I know it sounds so funny. But psychologically, somebody's eager, they will start filling in the details, but they need space to fill in the details. That's why you use expansiveness. Because they will fill in that open space with their desires, their aspirations, things like that. Somebody who's cautious does not desire that kind of space. So you want to be much more focused

I love that, we're talking with Will neech this is The Mindstate Marketing Hour and Will's the author of Marketing To Mindstates by Will Leach. And we're learning how to actually use science to connect better with our clients. And so today, we're just learning more about how we can connect with our customers by understanding their professional disposition.

Yeah, and let me let me quickly talk about you know, I know you said in creative, but imagine I think it's in all touchpoints. Right. So imagine, if you now know that your client, you think they're a little more cautious, and you think that they're a little bit more reserved. So imagine how your emails would look, if you understood that this person is a little more cautious in the way that they do business, right. So you would start thinking about, okay, when I write an email, I'm going to be a little more kind of professional, maybe then other times, you would lay out things like you make sure that your emails are very easy to scan, and that they lay out processes. So you'd say, Hi, Jim, just reconfirming that it was important for us to capture notes for a meeting, here are the objectives, bullet point those objectives. Here's the next steps, bullet point those next steps. So in your emails, you'd be getting much more detail. And you'd also be very kind of, you'd have a framework of helping him think through what's going on. So you start off with, here's what the email is about, here are the objectives of the meeting, here's what the outcomes were of that meeting, or imagine a phone call, when you're going to talk to this person, you would probably be less open or they're less open to hearing about how their weekend was. So I never I never, I don't think I've ever talked to this. I worked for a number of years on Sabra, the business, and Sabra is owned by an Israeli company. And so I would fly to Brooklyn is where they're headquartered at the time, I think they still are. And their executive leadership team were Israeli. And so I noticed very quickly, my first two weeks, I came up there, I would try it was a Monday morning, I flew in on Sunday nights, and we set up on our executive call or executive meeting. And I would try to open up things like hey, How's everybody weekend? Or whatever. And I could tell by the second time I did that, that they weren't open to that, not making them bad. It was the fact that that we're in a business meeting, we should be talking about business. When we have social meetings, that's when we talk about our family. And it took me about two weeks of knowing, okay, their disposition is very business oriented. And so therefore it doesn't do me no good because they want to move into business. So the idea of your phone calls would be the same way or starting a meeting with that person is be less open to wanting to talk about weekends. Like you know, nowadays, I sometimes have calls for 10 or 15 minutes with clients talking only about family because of COVID. And you know, especially people everyone want to talk about how they're feeling or whatever. So that can happen, sometimes other people want to really get that kind of quick conversation done with in the first minute and get down to business. It's not because they're being rude, it's because their natural disposition is to get into the business. side of things and to go and, they're a little bit more reserved. And then in your follow ups, right, so you could set up your emails like that, your calls and your follow ups, you always want to follow up with somebody, if they're more cautious in nature, or you know, if they're reserved with a lot, you want to over communicate to somebody in that state of mind, we're saying, Hey, I just want to make sure I got your email, I'll reply to you within 12 hours. If somebody is in that eager space, they don't want you to say, I'll reply to you in 12 hours, like, give me your initial thought, I'm okay with not being perfect, you know, I just want you to, I want to know that we're building something together, we're both eager to get to the next place. We're both kind of optimistic of working together. So this case, you just want to rattle off something, it's okay not to have perfect spelled words, it shows that your personality is out there and that you're building something together. So very differently in your phone calls, you'd be much more open about how is your weekend? What are you thinking about right now about our business together? You'd be much more open and personal, and talking about how we are going to get to that a better place together. So it's a great way of thinking about how do I approach this phone call? How do I approach my meeting? How do I approach my emails, to make sure that it just feels natural to your clients disposition?

On an unrelated topic, but being open and eager here, LinkedIn seems to be the one channel we have the most trouble connecting with. The times that we we go live, often it connects but every once a while it doesn't. So LinkedIn, if you're listening, come on, man.

That's right. Come on, we can really use some help here. I'm telling you, I'm with you. They'll get their act together, they'll get their act together.

So I love the comment, you are first an agent of emotion. Their businesses, their only business dispositions to mimic. They're optimistic and eager, cautious and reserved. I really liked how we've talked about utilizing this mindset in our communications, our proposals, our website, materials, what are some other things that we haven't thought about? What are some other domains that we would apply this?

Wow, it's a great point, I think, you know, I guess depends on what your business is. But think about every touch point where your client or your potential customer is trying to get a better feel for you before, usually before they do business with you. Because once you start doing business with you build trust, and then disposition doesn't matter as much. So I think it says early funnel stages, I think, is the best way to think about how do you try to map your, you know, or match your dispositions together? You know, I think it's probably in the earlier funnel stages, I think after a couple of different business transactions, it all just kind of works itself out. So even if you're doing lead generation, if you're doing initial outbound sales, it's probably really useful in those outbound sales calls to try to figure out the disposition of the person on the other line as quickly as possible. So that on your follow up calls or whatever, that you're kind of matching that disposition in, not your mannerisms, but your style and your approach to that person.

So would this be an example of a topic that we would learn about in your Mindstate Marketing Programs for small businesses?

It absolutely is, yes, we are launching three of these new Mindset Marketing Programs. for small businesses. Our very first program is called our Starter Pack. And that starter pack is a chance for you if you're not really sure about Mindstate Marketing yet or you're new to behavioral sciences, you want to step kind of your foot into the water without fully committing. There's a starter package waiting for you where you get access to our book and workbooks and digital files that allow you to kind of do it yourself at your own pace. Our second program is called our Masterclass, and our masterclass is going to give you about 12 hours worth of video content, where we're going to show you how we applied mind state marketing to a real business called Wicked Chris, I mean, and we built this business from the ground up. So you'll learn all these topics that we talked about in the book disposition is kind of one of those topics we talked about as well, but we do it in a very methodical way that you can go step by step for as long as you need to come back because this you have lifetime access to these videos. You have the ability to go back when needed to review an old course to get even better at it. That's our masterclass option. And our third option is the Partnership Program that is a chance where you get all the masterclass stuff you get access lifetime access to the video, but in the partnership program, you actually get a live workshop with me and my team, where we go through and we identify these things not for the brand I worked on, we do it for your brand. So we go through the whole process working with you and your team to identify people's mindsets, your customers mindsets, their disposition, and then bring you through a process to understand how to better communicate with those people to get them to Listen, care and act on your messaging. So it gives you different levels of interactions with me. And you have in that partnership program, there's a whole year where you're gonna have every month calls with me and my team to help you, you know, modify your marketing, do audits on your market if we need to, or just pick my brain on how to grow your company. So those are the three new programs. And it's because the passion for small businesses getting this information of small businesses, because small little tweaks, Steve, you know, small little tweaks to your messaging and your approach to people and your business can make a really big difference if they're kind of rooted in emotion.

So you can get all the details at themindstategroup.com these are live, is that correct?

They are, they are live in about a day. So in bout a day, God willing, to buy some stuff, but on the website, we're all still trying to figure all this out and map it all back. But it should be up and running by tomorrow. So if you wanted to see it today, guys, reach out right go to mindsetgroup.com and find my email address, and reach out to me and I'll show you specifically where to find it. But as of tomorrow, it's all going to be out there on our resources page. So it'll either be tonight or tomorrow.

So Will you're pretty active on LinkedIn, that would be a great place if they had some individual questions to ping you there and message you on LinkedIn?

Absolutely. Yeah, I'm always on LinkedIn. I'm on there multiple times a day. So yeah, come to LinkedIn connect with me shoot me a quick message. And I can tell you kind of what makes sense for you. Because sometimes certain programs may not make sense. I'm really good identifying the perfect program for you. And I'll just lead you in the right direction.

So is it their job to tell you hey, if they've been listening to this, they come to you via LinkedIn, they message you. Do they need to declare whether they're optimistic and eager, or cautious and reserved? Or is that your job, you're going to be able to identify that?

That is my job. The entrepreneur should be taking these things into consideration to build that emotional connection. That's my job, baby, not yours.

Well, I've learned so much and have fun on these. We're doing these Mindstate Marketing Hours, every week at the same time, Thursdays at 11 Central. I'm Steve Brown, a co-host and we've been learning from Will Leach. He's the author of Marketing To Mindstates, how to use science to connect your clients. Will one more thing, man. So you're going to have a new version or an updated version revision? What do we call this? The unabridged what do we call this of your book?

You know, we're we didn't want to call it a new edition, because there's legal ramifications on that. So basically, it's an updated book with all the information from 2018 to 2020, new information that's coming, so Marketing To Mindstates is going to be there some revamped pages in there new information and a new cover. And so right now it's going through the editing process. And I expect that we're gonna have a nice big announcement, you know, how you know, the companies are, it's like six to eight weeks, basically in six to eight weeks, you're gonna have a brand new marketing mindset that's available. And I gotta, get that out the door, because my next book selling to mind states is going to start, we're going through the writing process right now. So we don't have much time. So we got to start selling to mind states. And that's gonna be much more focused on small businesses, small business growth, and, you know, hopefully, hopefully get these one to one interactions like you and I are having How do you optimize the one on one interaction? So that's going to hopefully launch in end of 2021? I'm hoping or very early next year.

Yeah. So you know, things, we've really had our status quo up ended. And we're all having to learn how to conduct business and excel and be competitive in a totally different environment. And so these books really do give you a leg up work. So if we went to mindstategroup.com, there's an area that we ought to set up, we'll where people can sign up to get on your notification list, as soon as these are available.

Well, since you are my agency, then Steve, I want you to figure that out for me, and put that up, put that link up there. So yeah, you just committed your team to doing that. But it's a great idea, because it's coming out especially even with the new information that'll be six to eight weeks, and then get on the list. Because what I what I will do honestly, gosh, I think a great part of what I'm going to write the book, selling two mindsets, is reaching out to people like you and my people who are connected with me and ask them as we're going along. What do you think about this? Is this meeting your needs? Like why wouldn't we crowdsource a book to make sure that it fits your needs? We have access emails, if you give me your email, I can send this stuff over to you give you kind of updates. Have you actually read chapters? Why wouldn't you do that? Fill in your Hey, will I think you should go in this direction, great. Let's go crowdsource this thing. And then when it's out and running, you get a little probably a little blurb saying thank you for your contributions, like you'd be a part of the book. So that's if you're interested interested in doing that, Steve? We We'll be setting up some page on my website. So you can actually get notifications when this stuff is being written and you get to build a book with me.

Awesome. I love that. And we'll get LinkedIn squared away as well. Yeah. So we'll start really getting setting up the steps. Were getting everybody excited, because this is going to be an excellent book. I've gotten so much from it, that that's why we have these conversations every week. Will, as usual, this has been fun. You made me laugh. I learned some good stuff, I can see that I got some work to do on my proposal work. So I think I'm a little cautious and reserved actually.

I think I'll be the judge of that. But I think you're a little I think you're I think you're cautious and reserved. So you gotta remem er that and then how do y u amplify that a little mo e eagerness when you need to or e just yourself when you don' ? You and I both being cautio s and reserved. That's why we h ve this kind of relation hip we do.

Yeah, so Oh, and by the way, so my attorneys that we were talking about some stuff.

We got an idea for your new book.

Yeah. I got this great idea. All these people have talked to me now. Will, we'll see you next week. Thanks, man. I've enjoyed it

Thank you. I ap reciate it. See you next we k, everybody.

All right. That's a wrap. Thanks for listening to another fun episode of the ROI Online Podcast. For more, be sure to check out the show notes of this episode. And feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn where we can chat, and I can help direct you to the resources you're searching for. To learn more about how you can grow your business better. Be sure to pick up your copy of my book, The Golden Toilet at surprise, theg ldentoilet.com I'm Steve Br wn, and we'll see you next we k on another fun episode of th ROI Online Podcast.