[Special Episode] The Mindstate Marketing Hour #3 with Will Leach - The ROI Online Podcast Ep. 41

Welcome to the ROI online podcast. And this is a special series of interviews with will Leach. He's the author of marketing to mind states the practical guide to applying behavior design to research and marketing. And I'm your host, Steve Brown, the author of the funniest book on marketing, the golden toilet, stop flushing your marketing budget into your website and build a system that grows your business. And then this series of conversations, we're going to explore everything about marketing, your messaging, and connecting with your clients, your customers, your employees. So come on, and join us. And let's have some fun. All right, Welcome back, everybody, to the ROI online podcast in this is the marketing the mind state series with our guest will each will each welcome.

Thank you for having me, once again, looking forward to this.

Yeah, so we've been talking, going deeper into the aspects of Europe, excellent book marketing to mind states that Practical Guide to apply behavior design, research, marketing. And in that we've kind of learned about the importance of higher order goals. Why don't you, if you don't mind, let's give us a little short little refresh on that. And then I've got my next question,

you got it. So just to remind everybody, we all have goals. And there are two types of goals, you know, functional goals and higher order goals. And it's the higher order goals, the purpose behind kind of why we want to achieve things in life are the ones that matter the most and messaging. So think of a goal is it just provides direction for your everyday behaviors. So if you message to somebody higher order goals, I'm like, I want to be a great dad, or, you know, I'm looking to make a big impression on my high school reunion, whatever those goals are, that's what your message to when you message to that you're much more likely to get people to kind of follow your lead.

Yeah. So what that is doing when you're acknowledging that you understand those higher order goals, and you're relating that person feel safe and understood. And I think that's a great segue into a discussion about you call it the system one. And system two, in your book, give us a little background on system one and system two.

Yeah. So it's work actually done by by a gentleman named Daniel Kahneman. Daniel Kahneman is the grandfather or the father maybe of a concept called behavioral economics. But it's really all this behavioral science that we're talking about. Now, he took that term from somebody else as well, but he popularized it. But here's the idea. We all have two kind of systems in our brains. Everybody has a systems, system one and system two. So system, one, are all the kind of the part of your brain that takes on the emotion, I think, you know, we talked about, you've talked about it as the reptilian side of the body guard.

Yeah, but that's

right. That's your system. One is your non conscious, it is driven by more, it's driven more by emotions and automatic processing. And it's all these thousands of thousands of decisions that you're making every day, at the non conscious level. That's system one. It's based on emotion and habits and rituals. And it's very, very fast, it makes fast decisions, system to our more rationalized part of your brain, it's when you're really deeply thinking. And this is kind of where you're using a little less on emotions, more rational things, you're using rules, you're really deeply, deeply in thought system to thinking is slower. So you know, a lot of people say, well, it's right brain versus left brain or conscious versus unconscious. That's not really the big point of system one, system two, system one and system two, the big point is your system one non conscious, is powerful. It's huge. In fact, it processes at about 11 million bits per second. So you're not conscious is taking in lighting temperature, your heartbeat, how you're feeling emotionally conversations, and it's processing all this to try to make meaning your system to in contrast is only you know, processing about 50 bits per second. So 11 million bits per second versus 50. What that means is your non conscious that reptilian brain, that emotional brain override system to all the time, that's the whole basis of all the stuff that we're be talking about is we want to tap into that system, one nonconscious that's so powerful, but then you've got to also have system to rational things, proof points. And if you put both of those together, your content and your message As much more effective, you

know the quote you have in there, it's my favorite quote of your book. But it helps me remember this concept that you're talking about is, is we don't think as much as we think we think. And that's what you're saying is that we were making decisions even though we don't know it, we're using the rational side of our brain to justify justify this. Yes. And so if we're designing content, just on the justification side of things, we're missing this huge opportunity to really connect with the system, one brain.

Yeah, that's right. So nowadays, I mean, you can look at these terms up now. But you know, a decade ago, they're all new. Now they're becoming more and more common, but to anybody that's watching. It's still a huge point of differentiation and advantage for companies, because for so many decades, we were told these rational tell people why you're better tell people, you know, tell me tell me, you know, I was endorsed by the ADA, or I've got 13 vitamins and minerals and things like that has been the basis of advertising and messaging for so long. And now just there's, it's so clear that Behavioral Sciences says that you can do so much better if you tap into that nonconscious. And the goals that we talked about those higher order goals, that system, one that system, one writing, that's emotional writing.

Awesome. So the next thing that you start to move us into is understanding motivations. Tell us about what's the difference in higher order goals and motivation.

Yeah, I like to think of it almost, there's an analogy I like to use. So goals are basically just the destination that you want to be in a future date, right? So a goal is just just the point between where you are today and your aspirations. So those are useful. Those are very powerful, in fact, because we want to go after our aspirational selves like that, you know that the person we want to be. But how many of you, I have raised my hand right now. I have lots of big goals, but I never reach those goals. Right? I just fizzle. It's me. I'm that guy, Steve, that on January 1, you can damn well guarantee I'm going to be at my local Starbucks, because I'm writing out my new year's resolutions. My wife knows that I get up on New Year's Day at seven o'clock, and she won't see me until three or four. And it's I've been doing it my whole life, because I take that stuff very seriously. But the fact of the matter is, even though I know all of this science, I know all of this work is supposed to help me articulate in my mind my goals. For whatever reason, in March, I look back, I'm like, I just gave up on that. Why did you give up on that? motivations, that's a second part of the model. So where goals, tell your mind where to go, motivations, provide the fuel that will keep you going in that direction. So goals are great. But if you add motivations, that fuel to that car, if you will, you're much more likely to get somebody to take action. And so as marketers, that is a huge part of what we should be doing. It's not just you know, reminding people their goals, but providing that emotional fuel to help them achieve their goals. And if I can associate my company with you reaching your goals, Brother, you we've got loyalty starting at that point, because you have real emotional meaning.

So when let's take some examples, let's let's go right, so real estate, or construction, or, or something like that, and give us some examples of what a marketer? How would you create a motivation? How do you use a motivation based on the goals?

Yeah, so first off, let's let's just simplify motivational psychology. It's been out there for well over 100 years, but what we can tell you is that motivational psychology has been aggregated into nine motivations. So there's only nine that drive the vast majority of decisions, things like achievement, right? Which is to feel successful or victorious or proud. So think about that the type A, maybe the athlete, the professional athlete, that is all about success, right? That's, that's what drives them to get up every morning and work out. Or another one is autonomy. And autonomy is really big. Right now, autonomy is the feel desire to feel unique, independent and distinct. So it's having personal freedoms and liberties. So people are driven by that. So there are nine of these motivations. And what really motivation does is ultimately when we are driven to motivation, this is where you start getting to emotional marketing, you really are just wanting a feeling. So if you are driven by achievement, you want to feel successful. If you're driven by autonomy, you want to feel freedom. If you're driven by security, you want to feel safe. So ultimately, if you are a writing content or you're a marketer and agency, you want to tap into the feeling that somebody aspires to reach their goal. That's where these motivations come. And these nine these nine motivations.

These nine motivations are achievement. autonomy. Yep. belonging. Yep. competence, empowerment, engagement, esteem. nurturance. and security. That's right. They're pretty self explanatory. You know, which, but you can't use and we bake them all into your your messaging, right?

That's right. That's right. So what the science would tell you is that for any given, let's just call it a category for any product, or any service that you sell, your customers usually have a primary motivation, one of those nine, and sometimes a secondary motivation. And every, the remaining seven, may be somewhat influential, but really, you shouldn't be concentrating on them. So if you were to try to use all nine, or five in the same brand, or the same messaging, things get kind of confusing. Because imagine if in the same message, and you're talking about helping this person become a success, but also that they will be loved, and then also that they'll be admired. And then they'll also feel accepted, it gets confusing. So really, you want to focus on just one two at the most. And the idea is to identify the motivation, which of those nine is most influential for your customers. And let me simplify it even more, even though you said nine. Sometimes I think even the word achievement can get confusing, right? So let's let's break it down to Don't think about the motivation, think about the feeling, the feeling that is associated with that. So achievement is associated with success. So just write down a shape of success. And that can be very influential in a lot of different products and services. autonomy is freedom. Belonging is the desire to feel accepted. Um, competence is the desire for mastery. So think about with with mastery is all about like a hobby, you want to learn a new language, things like that. empowerment is the desire for somebody, somebody have more control. So that's the feeling people want to feel more in control. Engagement is more about captivation. Like it's a release of some kind of emotion. So really big on restaurants. Like last week, we talked a little bit about engagement. esteem is admiration. So desire for respect and admiration. nurturance is love that is very self explanatory. And then security is that desire to feel safe. So I like to look at those more as emotions, now they just help people go, Yeah, because there's a clinical definition. But ultimately, I think we all can feel what we want to feel we want, we can identify with feelings. And so that's why I like to talk about the feelings associated with those motivations.

So what I love about this, this information is, you know, my view was you needed to create a persona to make to narrow when or focus better on the type of content you should create. So those typical systems of personas and figuring out Well, generally, it's a marketing director, and they're between these ages and this. But it's not necessarily true, because I also have business owners that don't have a marketing director that are attacking this challenge as well. And so to to realize that actually, people are in all these different states of mind throughout the day, but they generally are in a particular state of mind when they're deciding that they're going to tackle this business problem.

That's right. That's right. So it's usually one or two states of mind. Exactly. Right.

So then, then if the system one brain, your body guard is really in play, then how effective can it meet and go, Hey, body guard, we don't even have to use language, or text, but you can feel that I understand you, and that you're safe here. And you can give permission to spend a little time on the justification process. This time you're investing right?

That's exactly right. Yeah, no, there's there's unlike what I what I like about what you said is you can you can create this feeling just through facial expressions, right? Like, I can tell through a facial expression, the difference between love and admiration, somebody's feeling admire. So like I can tell you is your subconscious definitely knows the difference. So you can actually create that feeling with a person who's looking at your content without using a word at all. It's It's literally through muscles in in who you're photographing, there's a lot of work and facial coding and things like that, that teach you these systems. But that is just by showing somebody in your ad that has that that emotion, you are more likely to feel that emotion and if I feel that emotion, I'm more likely to engage gage with that piece of content.

Well, so that's why you see so many faces in so many ads, or, or, yeah, pictures of website pages. You know, as a kid I saw, I saw this study where they were holding a baby. And a baby doesn't process language. So babies a great representation of system one brain and play. And it's amazing how the babies pay attention to the face. And they can you can read what the emotions being. in that study, I remember like someone would turn around and have a stern look, and the baby would like, change it. So demeanor. And that's what's still in play the rest of your life.

That's right, it's within days that study, I think it's like eight days after birth, babies can recognize emotions in people's faces, within eight days, I love that. It's a great, it's a great study, but it makes you realize that it's that before there's every real consciousness or awareness, these things are already like a part of who we are in our DNA. And these emotions, yep.

That's so cool. Because those babies are little survival machines, they've figured out how to communicate and control their environment within days, literally can manage a whole household and know how to eat well. That's right. That's right, they do a very well, they do very well. So why wouldn't you acknowledge that and honor that part of our design, in your messaging in your marketing, and your, all of your touches that people run into,

and what's interesting about you, I love how you just weren't used the word honor. And I may start using that as well. Because there was a transition, I'm gonna say, seven years ago, maybe 10, where these sciences were becoming more prominent, but you know, a whole advertising world has been focused on, give me your benefits of their brand, I'm gonna communicate the benefits. So their solution for so long was, well, I know, we got to get emotional. So let me just overlay kind of emotion, they call it like the velvet, the velvet kind of liner on the hammer. So my hammer you with why you should buy my product, but let me just put some emotion that's not honoring emotion. So what you should be the other way around, you should, the hammer should be emotion, and then you send then you kind of bring on top of it. Oh, and here are the rational, here's some proof points on why we can deliver on that emotion. And I still don't think a lot most people are there. But the science is very clear that that's how you should communicate. It's so clear and back. But it takes time. But but that's what you saw about a decade ago is, you know, just barely just a loop, you know, kind of allude to the emotion but gets get to the companies fast. We can't talk about why the company is good for you. That was the thing, but it's getting better. We're getting better. As an industry. I

want to pause here just for a moment and talk to you about a program that we have just released called ROI quickstart Academy for authors. Every day, I talk to business owners just like you who struggle with quickly getting their fundamentals in place. We want to create a great foundation, and we want to grow our business. But the things that are in our way, our lack of knowledge about the specifics, we should put in place, what kind of technology what kind of messaging and what kind of campaigns and that problem exists for authors as well. And we just chill so good with authors because, well, I'm an author, and I understand everything that you struggle with, you have a great idea you have a great book, but what do you want to do, you want to get your book in front of more people, you want to make it easy for them to find you learn how they can schedule a time to talk with you hire you for a conference, or maybe sign up for the services that your book promotes. So what is the Quickstart Academy for authors? Imagine working with a small group of like minded authors, and the experts from the ROI quickstart team, it's a great way to get your messaging clear to be confident with the technology in your marketing automation, and how to run a strategic campaign to get you more of what you want from the investment of your book. To learn more about the Quickstart Academy for authors, you can visit ROI online.com or click in the link in the show notes below. And now back to this episode. So the brains desire to or crave to receive information in a certain format. Now, there are arguments that would go Okay, you're you are manipulating me to eat a bag of chips. Okay. Well, that's from a position or perspective of manipulation, mind mindset as opposed to an honor and deliver communication in a way that people's brains desire. And you're your bodyguard That system one can immediately distrust a manipulate messaging. And, and you could go, so did you feel manipulated? And they may not have the words to say it, but they would go, I just didn't feel right.

Yep. Yep. And I always, you know, I've had that question before. And I and I will say, you can scare somebody, you can use fear, to get people to do something one time, that's the issue. And if that is a bad experience, or they feel manipulated, the long term consequences on your business are forever, because that will always feel off. Like even if you said I love you said like, they may not know exactly, but they'll know something was off. And in today's world, all it takes is that. So I think it's a great, it's a great point, is that through the lens of manipulation, yep, you're right, long term, you're gonna suffer. But if if it's like, Am I giving you information in a way that you're more likely to absorb, be engaged with and make sure your product delivers? Like, if your product delivers, then they got what they wanted. And they had a great experience, like, then we're benefiting our customers, you know, so I am not a huge believer in this idea of using the sciences to try to manipulate or anything else, because I think this, I think it would prove you that's a long term. Oh, really bad idea. I am a huge proponent of using the sciences to convey messaging in a clear way, in an engaging way, and deliver products that help people's lives. I'll do that all day long, and look in the mirror very confidently and happy when I wake up in the morning.

Yeah, I think your illustration of, Okay, so we have this little task that we have to check off to put an emotional layer on here, let's hurry and get it done. Without any, any really, this is why bad marketing is so prevalent, is because the people that are doing it are doing it in a hurry, just to get it out of the way. And they're making marketing for these consumers that don't have a face. They don't have a name. They don't have, they just see them as these, I call them Cadillac credit cards. Yeah. And to really dial in your motivations and figure that out your your higher order goals and motivations means that actually, you know, spend some time with a guy named Sam. And you asked a lot of questions and you figured out he's got a family or he's got these dreams, these higher order goals, you can't make up and just just magically pull out a higher order goal, and they and then person go, Oh, you get me by accident.

That can happen. It can't and you know, and you know this too, that it takes a while with your consumer, it takes good research or good intuition, you'll play with it a little bit too. But once you nail it, it's it's it's forever, almost, I mean, it's so good. But it takes it takes some time. It takes some patience, and some perseverance. But but once you get to that point, you're in a really good place. And same thing with the motivation side of it too, right? Once you understand the feelings that somebody had, that they seek, when they reach that goal, that's usually forever, you know, so it takes time and patience. But once you get there, you can use it, you can look at the same content, there's so many different lenses and angles, you have so much variety of things, you products, innovate experiences to create messaging, content strategy, all through different angles, you'll never run out of ideas. In fact, you'll have more ideas, because it's going to box you in to a beautiful kind of wide boxes and spectrum of how to relate to this person as a human being. And God we need that more than than ever, in today's marketing world, you know, so

true. So give us some examples of this for for a particular industry, maybe the real estate industry or property.

So, so So imagine that, you know, you're a homebuyer, um, and or let's actually the other way around, let's say your real estate agent. So you're selling real estate, maybe it's commercial, maybe it's maybe it's, you know, residential real estate agent. And you know that you have a buyer and the buyer has a higher order goal to buy this great house. And the higher the goal could be, you know, I've just to reach this dream of, of finally success, like a lot of people associate buying the house of what the American dream, whatever that is. Okay, so now you have a higher goal, the American dream. So this is why the buyer is looking for that. But all because people want the American dream. There's lots of people who never achieve that, right? So they may look at a home and I know real estate agents out there all the time, they get somebody they drive the client around, and then also the client just goes dark. Well, you figured out the harder goal but there wasn't something that maybe got them to the next stage to give them the fuel to actually, you know, go look at the house or or maybe put down a you know, an offer. So there are these nine motivations. So I'll just give you examples for a house that you can say, Oh my gosh, I could see how I could take the exact same house with all the same features but frame the benefits are framed that house in a different way based upon these motivations. So let's say that first one is achievement or the desire for success. Let's say, this person buys a house because in their mind, they think it's a sign of success, like I made it. And there's a lot of people that do that. Well now, if you're a real estate agent, when you're showing that home, you may talk about things like this, this has great schools, great schools, if your child you know, if you have children, well then this is a sign of they can also be an achiever, you talk about their uncle, all the upgrades. So success is how you talk more about the upgrades and the things that are above and beyond a normal house. Um, but let's say let's go to the next one, which is autonomy. So some people may look at a house and they think no, having a house is about making it unique to my to me, I want to make sure this house I can I can put my my kind of spin on the house when now you would say you can make this home your own with your own very unique floor plans are you could customize it or it's a fixer upper, maybe so this home is a fixer upper, you can make it to fit your needs. Same house, but now your positioning is slightly different in different way. Yeah, longing, right is I think in my neighborhood, I think about belonging. I live in a suburb of Dallas. And when I came here, I was looking for community, we lived in downtown Dallas, we didn't know our neighbors very well, we lived on a hospital campus as a fact. So we didn't have a lot of neighbors. So Nicolas, you know, it was a little little baby inside of mommy's belly. And I came up here and in my head, the the home was not nearly as important as the community. And I was into triathlons back then, too. So I was asking for things like are their shoes like, you know, they have great neighbors here, lots of kids, and belongings, all that acceptance, right. And I was like, I want my wife to be a part of a Bible study, I want to be able to ride my bike with other bike riders, same house. But that real estate agent frame this up about the community. And that got me motivated getting one you can do that again. And again, I have for all nine motivations, how to talk about if it's safety, you talk about the safety of the neighborhoods, and how neighbors look out for each other. Right, and then all sudden, that takes that same house, but provides that fuel to say, this is the right house for me. And it goes again and again. So that's hopefully just a nice, easy way of understanding how to give that additional motivational fuel to get someone to go, this is a good decision for me. And yes, I want to act on this decision. I'm going to go ahead and make an offer.

Wow, that's so cool that you have these real estate agents. They work hard. They're driving you from house to house, but maybe oblivious to what your your motivations really are. Yeah, and how revolutionary it can be to maybe to prep someone before you go. Alright, so this one's got a great community here. And I don't know if you're interested in these things, is that what you're looking for? And then they go, Yeah, but then you wouldn't waste your time taking them to that house.

I just had a real estate agent do this in Tennessee, where we're looking at my mom's property. And before I ever met with her, you know, she didn't use all nine motivations. But through her questionnaire, I figured out she's got about five of the motivation. She doesn't know it. But she had five and I thought myself, if I gave her the additional four, she would have a little quick questionnaire to ask. And she would know oh, this person is driven by esteem. So admiration. So So at this point up, they keep talking about, you know, I finally made it. And this is a neighborhood, I can finally afford the neighborhood that I wanted to go to, they're looking for respect. So now you say, you know, this is an up and coming neighborhood, you start using that stuff that's up and coming neighborhood has a prestigious address, things like that. So I remember, a lot of people who've been in their industry for a while, they intuitively know this stuff, what I'm trying to systematize it for done, I get her five done, I could probably just give it the other four. And she would know all nine motivations. And she would know exactly like you said, not even just how to position the house, but also she would know, oh, this person is seeking esteem. So I don't want I want to go to an area that's up and coming because they are seeking to be a part of something that's up and coming and to feel the kind of that that respect and admiration. So there's certain neighborhoods or maybe certain parts of a city, like they're not gonna be interested in that as much because it's well established. It's not a prestigious address. So let's walk away from that. So that's how you use it. You can do that for any industry, you can do this for any industry.

So how would you coach someone to start to discern, so you know, I see this, these motivations here and I'm go, maybe I don't really feel as confident as I like to to, to think I have the discernment to quickly identifying what someone is wanting or would resonate with.

Yeah, it's gonna take some practice. What I think you do is you have these honest conversations with you know, whether they're your customers in live or there's research or whatever. And what I would do is on a sheet of paper, I would literally write down those nine feelings, right success, love, freedom, acceptance, mastery, control, captivation, admiration and safety. So all nine and then the book, then what I would do is I would go and I've done this, go to thesaurus calm and look up synonyms of those nine words. And from there, you're going to get a list and just write those down. You're gonna write those lists, let's now you have this to say, let's bucket them into 15 words per category. Right? Now, what I'm going to do is I'm going to type those up, I'm going to place those right up on my computer or right up on a wall. And after I have a conversation, I don't think you can really, in most times, I don't think you want to say which of these nine motivations are you most seeking when you buy my product you don't want to do that. I can't tell you is remember last week, we talked about how to understand somebody's goals. And in that question, we said, Hey, what are you looking for? And they'd say, Oh, I'm looking for low prices, or whatever, all the functional things. And then you'd say, Well, why is that important? when people tell you why something's important, and you do it twice, we talked about that last time, we do it twice, almost always Steve, they're going to say things when they get the hierarchical emotion. Most people speak to higher order goals in an emotional way. So they would say things like, Oh, you know, to get American dream. So I can be successful or a synonym of that. After you just write those words down, write whatever she said, or he said, Now go back to that sheet of paper and look for the words in that and you'll get a feeling you do this enough times, you're like, when I the way the person talked about what they're looking for, I think they're really looking for respect or control or all the synonyms. That's how I started learning how to do it kind of more methodically, and now we have artificial intelligence that will get smarter. But after you do this, for a while, it just becomes intuitive. You'll look at those nine feelings like this person really desires control, they feel like they're out of control in this home, gives them the ability to have more control over their environment done. And now you notice to speak to anything that made you want to write is think about all the ways that your product, your service, this house can provide this person control. And the book tells you how to kind of do that. Now you know how to frame up that house in a way that just it's still a great house, because it still provides them control, you can't make up these features. It's there. But focus on those. And if you focus on those, they're gonna be so much happier with that purchase, because like, it gave me control, and you get all these other benefits on top of it, right?

That's beautiful to think about, and pay attention to the vocabulary words that people use when you're, that's called laddering, by the way, that a questioning process is called laddering. And just by not accepting the first answer, not in a, you know, antagonistic way, but desire to understand better. But if you're writing down the vocabulary words, not just what they're saying, but their vocabulary words will start to give you that list of synonyms, so to speak. That's right.

That's right. I always tell people, that when people in conversations just like poker there tells me people have tells in their words. So words matter a lot. And so if you can just try to write the exact words as best you can record it, whatever you got to do. And you look back on it, they tell you a lot about people's subconscious and what's really driving us have to have an ethical way to approach that task. And hopefully marketing mindsets, gives you that that that kind of step by step process to understand that.

So if I was a real estate agent, right now, I'd be going to will have a course or something that I could take, maybe I would go to a web page and go hey, I want that. That real estate eyes. synonym list, I'd trade my email address for that, just to give me a shortcut and save me a little time and maybe sign up for a workshop. Is that something that maybe that is funny, you said

that's very doable? Yes. So a group comm mindset group calm, there's a Resources tab. And on that Resources tab, we have lots of free materials. And you know, I could easily put up the synonym list because I had to do it to build out my artificial intelligence. And, and you could sign up for a workshop. So we do monthly workshops. Our next one is on September 1 and September 2, and you would learn the training behind the entire thing, not just goals and motivations, but there's a whole lot that that goes a lot of other training that goes with it. But also you will actually run it for your business. So it's not just you listening about my business, or some having a theoretical conversation. You go through activities to apply these concepts to your business. So if you're a real estate agent, you could literally pick out and I would do this right? It's like pick out this one customer they just, they drive you crazy because they just can't make a decision. I'll tell you through that after two days, you'll know How to use these techniques to get this person to either put up or shut up, right? They're either motivated to buy a house, or they've been just yanking your chain beliefs, you know, after this process, so we do it every month, September 1 in September, September 2 is the next workshop dates.

Yeah, so I had, if I owned one of the real estate, what are the franchises Keller Williams, where they have all the agents, I would be like, I'm gonna call will and get him into a customized real estate version of that course, for all of my agents. And I think that would give that person a great advantage over the other agencies that you're competing against. And that that city,

that's good prime looks like,

that's a prime. And speaking of prime, that's probably where we're going next on this series, the marketing the mind state series with will Leach will, is there tell us? Is there anything else we need to cover right quick before we wrap this up? I don't

think so. I think that the whole point of all these conversations is very small, very easy to use, tactics, and kind of, you know, words and phrases to get you better results. And so we got two modules down, we got two more exciting ones to go. And after that, we could talk about other things about mindsets. But yeah, you're in part two. And hopefully these two little small details will make a big difference. Usually try you don't need out for you just need to try a few things here. And you'll see big results.

Awesome. This, I love these conversations isn't right in right in it. And what I love about it too, is it's not just feelings or gut, we're not running on our guts is all backed up with science. And I like to say, well blinds us with science in the marketing world.

Well, I'm here I'm here to play. So hey, thanks for having me. I'm glad I love talking to your listeners and our listeners. And so I'm just looking forward to the next time we get together.

All right, so marketing mind states. Huge. You can get the book on Amazon. Also, your web address will tell us your web address.

It's mine state group.com.

All right, and reach out. He's on LinkedIn too. You can find him he's all over the place. He's got a great following. He's a good man to know. All right. Thanks for being an excellent guest today. Well,

thank you for having me. Appreciate it.

All right. That's a wrap on ROI online podcast. Thanks for listening to another fun episode of the ROI online podcast. For more, be sure to check out the show notes of this episode. And feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn where we can chat, and I can help direct you to the resources you're searching for. To learn more about how you can grow your business better. Be sure to pick up your copy of my book, The Golden toilet at surprise, that golden toilet.com I'm Steve Brown, and we'll see you next week on another fun episode of the ROI online podcast.