[Special Episode] The Mindstate Marketing Hour #32 with Will Leach - The ROI Online Podcast Ep. 124

Hey everybody, welcome to a special series of conversations sponsored by the ROI online podcast with will Leach. He's the author of marketing to mind states, the practical guide to applying behavior design to research, and marketing. And in these conversations, we're going to deep dive and explore all the insights from wills book, as you learn how to use science to connect better with your clients. I'm Steve Brown, and here we go. Hey, everybody, welcome back to the ever changing, always dancing. mind state marketing hours will leech Well, how are you, sir? Doing well today? How

do I look? Before we get it? Right?

No, you look great. I think you perform really well under pressure.

Yeah, behind the scenes, everybody. There's stuff that happens behind the scenes. And literally, I was out of my seat about four seconds before start, and I just sat down. But good to see everybody.

So as the mind state marketing our will Leach is the author of marketing to mind states, it's a great book on how to use science to connect with your clients. He's also got the mind state group calm. And the mind state marketing blueprint offers a framework to identify emotions to connect with your clients. And so today we wanted to talk about we've been going through all of the aspects in your book, by the way, this book right here, marketing to mind states, one of my favorite books I'm and this is my favorite time of the week, I get so much out of this. And that's I'm being sincere. And and so what I'm looking for the title that we want to know today, we want to discuss how to grow sales with customers who are obsessed with mastery, what's going on here? Why is this important? Well,

that's right. So if you are in the knowledge economy, if you are helping people become more skilled in something, whether you're a coach of some kind, or if you, if you're a teacher, or you're a trainer, then deep down, the reason why your business x even exists is because of you have an innate desire, or your customers have an innate desire to create mastery over something. So we tend to see this started off in younger, when we're really young, where we tried to become masters have something just to stand out. So for me, I don't know about you, Steve. But for me, when I was a kid, I was just, I was just totally blown away by Bruce Lee and Enter the Dragon. Remember, the dragon hit a bunch of these, these things. And that scene when he's down in the dungeon, and I just watched it recently, a couple weeks ago, again, and he has the nunchucks was when I was a kid, if you could master the nunchucks like you could own the neighborhood, if you could just figure out how to do that. Right. So I think as a mechanism to stand out and to build confidence, we sometimes desire mastery. And that's the psychological definition of it. And if you're like I said, if you're a coach, if you're a trainer, then you need to understand the psychology behind your customers. Because if you can give them the ability to master something, they're going to love you forever. You know,

I want to point out that when we're talking about this, your customers wanting to they have the desire to master something,

this is not all the time, this is only in when they're evaluating your product or your service. They're approaching this particular instance, that part of the day in this state of mind. Very important distinction. Because what we always say in the book, this is not a personality test, I'm not telling you to think about your customers in terms of a personality or segmentation. Your customers go through moments every day, where they enter into a different psychological mind state. They're temporary moments of emotional arousal that influence their decision making. So if you want to be considered and chosen, when they're thinking about, you know, working with you or buying one of your products, it's important to understand the innate kind of emotional desire that they have in that moment. And that's why we have these conversations each week to understand those moments.

Yeah, so I was just thinking about that, you know, we need to really stress that that's the that was the key takeaway in your book that I really enjoyed was understanding that we're not the static beings are always in one mood, we change moods. We look at things different all day long. And it's always was confusing to me as a marketer is like, Well, how do I create content For all these different moods or all these different ways that people evaluate our services and products.

That's right. So it's the power of psychology.

So when we think about the competence, the desire to feel how highly capable and being qualified and prepared and skilled in an activity, what's, where's that coming from? And how can we start to satisfy that?

Yep. So there are nine core human motivations that drive the vast majority of all human behavior. Things like security, we've talked about in the past, achievement, empowerment, our desire for control, well, one of these strong nine motivations is called competence. And so really, what it comes from is a lot of adolescent research over the last couple of decades, that's really been focused on how do people create self confidence. And one of the primary mechanisms of creating self competence or self confidence is through competence becoming better at something. So if you can help your customers become better at something that they want to become better at, then, like I said, you can drive great emotional engagement, loyalty to your brand, and just really drive sales, because you are the mechanism by which they create greater confidence in themselves. And when people have greater confidence in themselves, they feel better about themselves and make better decisions, etc, etc, etc.

So when you recognize this, that this is a motivation that they have, it's very endearing, and it feels good when you start to facilitate or support them in that mastery process.

Yeah, and I think it's the basis of all of your marketing, I think it's the basis of your products and services, I think it should be the basis of your entire business strategy. Now, when I say that, let's be on it's like, if you are in the space of music, for instance, then I'm not suggesting that you want to rewrite all your lyrics of your, of your songs, to talk about, you know, mastery, mastery mastery, what I am telling you, though, is that whether you know it or not, your customers have innate desires that make them want to buy. And so by understanding these and tweaking your messaging, tweaking your products and services, talking about your products or services in a way that resonates with that person, in this case, when they desire greater skills, and greater mastery will make them think of you first, again, like we said, Our whole job is in these moments in time to get them to think of you first. And then you got to deliver.

I think most brands are conflicted, because they're trying to show that they are the masters of this domain. And what you're saying is that puts you in a, in a conflict, that's unconscious conflict with your potential clients.

That's right, that's right and in the mat. And so we talked a lot about being a guide to your customers, and you can be a master you as a company can be a master in your domain, whether that's a tennis coach, whether that's a somebody who's trying to teach photography, or an educator, sometimes you can certainly be a master. The problem is, is when you tell your customers that we are the masters, listen to us, that is not the best way to engage with somebody who desires mastery. It gets you maybe a little bit of Oh, yeah, they're a Master Master. But you're taking that, that that that desire away from them by saying, You're the master. So what do you do? You're the guide. And we've talked about this in narrative psychology for a number of these sessions, right? Your job is to help them build mastery, and you have different experiences, you have different skills and levels of skills that they want to use, but you're the guide, ultimately, you need to tell them that it's through your guidance that they will become a master in whatever skill it is that you offer.

So competence is a way of going from the journey. Yeah, to getting better. Yeah, that's

right. So think about competence like this. I think a lot of times in business, we think like our job is to provide the product, the service, we're supposed to give them something very quickly, somebody who's driven for mastery, or greater skills or competence, right? It's a journey for them. And so you need to start thinking about your customers in relation to a journey. And first, they move from like, Okay, I'm good at something, they want to become good at something to becoming better, to becoming our very best selves. And what's interesting about that is it's not based upon your criteria of them becoming a success, or kind of you're now ultimately the master, it's your own internal sense of I am now a master at whatever it is that I want to do. I'm a really good photographer. So it's based on them. But the biggest part for you as a customer, I mean, as far as as a as a business is understanding that it's a journey. So you cannot think in terms of very short, quick kind of engagements. And if you want somebody to keep coming back to you again and again, you have to consider your business along a journey.

You know, I'm one of the things that really helps me when you talk about this is when You meet your prospect, your potential customer, they're at some stage of that hero's journey. So they're at some stage from getting good to getting better. And if you can recognize that where they are in that journey, and help build out the aspirational image in their mind and where they're going to go, it can be extremely powerful.

Yeah. And what I would even add on to that, Steve, it's helping them to self articulate where they are, yes. Now, based on your criteria, it's based on their criteria, they could be a horrible photographer. But if they think they're pretty good, recognize them as where they are, they see themselves as pretty good, but always moving to the next place. But what's really important is to say, tried to get them to express when they believe they're finally competent at something. And your job is to get them from where they currently believe they are to where they want to go. That's your job not based on your criteria based upon their criteria. Because if it's based on your criteria, that means you're the master, not them. And it's never going to be as an emotional engaging kind of experience as what you really want.

So what are some tips and tricks to psychologically connect with folks that really want to master stuff?

Yep, and this is probably this first one is one of the hardest ones to do. And it is helping people take small, easy steps, but don't have a heavy hand in it. Meaning as business owners, what we tend to do is we want to provide products or services and experiences that they'll increase the love, and then they'll they'll like, will solve their problem for them. And for a lot of people, that's great, except in this one, because in this case, people want to do the work themselves, or they'll never feel like they're really skilled. So what you've got to do is help people take small, easy steps to get them slightly better. Remember that journey from being good to becoming better to ultimately being our best selves. Don't take the heavy hand, let people make mistakes, it's In fact, it's I'm going to tell you later on, it's probably a good idea to help your customers make mistakes, because that's one learning style that we all have. So be careful about doing the work for them, it's a really hard thing for business owners to do. Because you know, you can make them better immediately by just doing the work. Don't do that. Resist that temptation, let them go through the journey, or they'll never feel like they're really better at doing whatever it is that you're trying to help them with.

So what are some of the challenging activities that we can think of as brands to help our clients achieve this?

Yeah, there are many things depending on what your category is, and what you do. My point here is that we all have different learning styles and different ways of becoming better. So you have to think about your coaching position, your education, your business as providing different types of challenging activities. Because there are different learning styles. And this is all about helping people learn and grow. So for instance, I'm taking tennis lessons from a guy right now in Dallas, he name is Matt cook, if you live in Dallas, you should be going to Matt cook. He's over at the legs. Now, very early on, he understood that the way I believe I'm best able to become better at tennis, was to understand the science behind it. I'm just that's who I want. I understand mechanics before I just kind of go in and have him start training. So what he does before anything is is okay, let me talk about again, the rotation of the ball, what you're trying to accomplish. He talks to me in that way. Because he knows I'm more tentative that way. And I feel like if I understand the mechanics understand the physics behind something that'll help me learn it better. Other people, I see him do this on the next chord over when I'm not taking a lesson. He shows other people on his phone, how professionals do it. So you'll show the phone and he'll scroll because that person needs to see it done. There's another one where you just give that person hands on you let them start trying to do it. And they learn from their mistakes. They keep hitting the ball into the net, keep hitting the ball and keep hitting the ball in it. And eventually he says okay, do you want to change that comes over, moves your hand grip a little bit, hit it again and all sudden you learn from actual muscle memory, a good coach a good business out there who's trying to help your you know, their customers become more skilled needs to understand that people have different ways of learning. And if you understand that have different, you know, in your back pocket ways to give every person their unique, best way to learn. So Matt cook does that really well in tennis? I've seen him do I'm like, Oh, he's changing his coaching style, because he knows that to build skills. Everybody has their unique way of doing it.

So if you're providing consistent progression, why is this a big deal as far as helping someone? I saw me as to me maybe but maybe there are other things that aren't.

Yeah, I was gonna say you know, so there's there's two different ways like when I was in the military, I went to I went to boot camp, right. Basic Training, and a way of making us become better soldiers more skilled was to yell at us and scream at us and call us words and all these things right for about five weeks, and then from there and you hated your drill sergeants back then right? See you hated the guy, but you couldn't do anything cuz he was a drill sergeant, but then they build you up in week five through eight. And also they give you a couple of small positive things, right? I would suggest to you that both are ways of helping somebody become more skilled. One is to basically tell them how bad they're doing, and create that internal motivation inside that desire. Like I'm going to prove him wrong. That's one way of doing it. And the other way is providing consistent positive reinforcement. I think if you're a business owner, my guess is you want to be associated with the last the five weeks five through eight with your drill sergeant, you're right, you want to be positive. So I really I think there are two ways of doing it. And they are both ways of doing it. I think for any business owner good providing that positive feedback brings, it creates an association with you, frankly.

So when we we want to create room to make mistakes without high penalties, but there needs to be a few penalties.

Yeah, there needs to be penalties just we make, we make some of our best decisions, and we learn from our mistakes. And this is kind of a universal truth. They always say things like when things are going great. You know, you don't tend you tend to take time to really learn your skill and your craft. It's only when things are going bad that you really take the time to focus on how can I get better. So you must allow your customers to make mistakes. My tennis coach helps he lets me hit over the ball I he'll he'll he'll see that I'm doing something wrong. So go do it again, do it again. Because he knows I will learn through my mistakes. He shows me how the ball keeps going. And he shows me how I keep hitting over the fence. Sometimes I'm really bad tennis player. But so you have to leave room for mistakes. And you have to get comfortable with that. And I think it's important for you to say it's you know, to your customers, hey, if you're coaching somebody, it's important to say, Hey, we're going to some of the best ways of learning a new skill is learning how to make a mistake, no doubt about it. But there are some times when mistakes can cost everybody some serious consequences. And so here's a great example. I've done my own tweaks on my website. Right now, I probably shouldn't have done that. But I did. So over weekend, I was sitting there and I made a bunch of bunch of changes on the website didn't tell you guys, my agency that I was doing it. And then on Saturday, I basically deleted any way that you could pay me for service. I just I don't know what I did to this day, frankly. But it was gone off my website. So for two days, I couldn't charge anybody, nobody can actually see my product. The whole page was gone. So on Monday, I was I was like I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. So I made a big mistake. And I learned from that mistake. But the penalty wasn't that bad because I thought I have to now recreate everything. And what it HubSpot and you guys do there's a mechanism HubSpot, you go back two days, press a button, and all sudden everything beyond before those two days comes back to life. That was an example of I learned from my mistake, but I wasn't penalized. I didn't have to rebuild an entire page on my website that could have taken me a week or whatever from memory. I mean, I don't have these things just sitting out like I don't have pictures on my website. That was a great way that HubSpot and you guys were able to allow me to make a mistake. So I learned a lesson don't mess with your website without like maybe talking to us a little bit about it, or letting us teach you because you guys have taught me how to do some certain things. But there wasn't a massive penalty. Because if there's a massive penalty, what happens is your customers could go, oh my god, I'm so bad at this, I'll never do this again, they will feel like they keep they're not skilled enough to do it, then you're not doing your job well. And they'll never come back to you because they feel like I'm just not able to do this kind of work, it lowers their self confidence. And there's all sorts of negative consequences out of that. So give them room to make mistakes. But man give them a mechanism where they can go backward in time and they don't lose everything when they do.

Hey, I wanted to pause right here and tell you about a book that you need to get today. It's the funniest book on marketing. It's called the Golden toilet, stop flushing your marketing budget into your website and build a system that grows your business. And guess who wrote it? That's right. I wrote it. And I wrote it just for you. Because I want to help you get past the last hurdles of setting up your business and getting it squared away. I wrote it so that you can avoid time wasting time wasting money wasting frustration, get the book on Audible. You can get it on Kindle. You can get it on Amazon, but get the book take advantage of the insights in there. And let me know what you think. And now back to this excellent episode. So let's talk about how you felt when one That was going on. And then compare that how you felt after you learned how to fix that.

Yeah, you know, at first let me just before I made the mix, I didn't realize I made the mistake as I was doing, I felt pretty good because I was doing trial and error myself. So I felt, you know, I could I would sit there, I changed some coffee, and I press a little button, I'd look at my website, I can see the copy chains. Okay, that's kind of cool. When I, I thought I didn't make a big deal. But when I went to my website, after changing and saving, everything went back online, the entire page was gone. It didn't, it wasn't like it was like, the entire page was literally off the internet. I felt immediately stupid, like you did, like I just cost my company a ton of money, possibly who knows what could have happened over the week? I know, it's silly to say, but I was I was offline for two days, I felt a little bit of a shame. I was a little shame because I didn't have to do that. That's what you guys do, right? I mean, but I mean, I felt like I wanted to make these quick changes. I was playing around a little bit. So I felt a little bit of a shame. Like I should have just asked for help. But I didn't. And so then on Monday, so I went two days without on Monday, the first thing that you guys did was Show me your screen. Well show me what you did. I couldn't remember exactly what I did, frankly. Because I could have done that myself try to go backward, then said don't worry. And I remember like she was I can go backward in time. When did you make the change? Like a Saturday morning? She was okay, I can go back in time. Look, it's no problem. I'll have it done. And she had it done like 10 minutes. I think it was nothing. But I remember this sense of relief, because oh my gosh, like I didn't just cost my company a week's worth of revenues. I only cost my company two days worth of revenues or more. There's only a sense of relief. I know you guys were the Savior. You're in a way you guys were the people that said Kim says in the future, just do this, do this. Don't ever touch this button. She thought she figured I think she figured out I think she was don't touch this button. This is a bad button for you to touch like okay, but she taught me and then I went in I even now, she sends changes Steve through the website for me to evaluate and make changes in the website live because she now feels I feel confident I know what I'm doing. And she feels confident that I that I'm not going to screw everything up. And so she got me to a place where rather than this time where she sends stuff to me in a Google doc and she has to make all those changes. She just allows me to make changes why she gave me greater skill.

That's really cool. So she didn't roll her eyes or any of that.

I'm sure she did after the call. Like, oh god, this guy, right? What is he doing? What are you doing, but she was nice about it.

But that what that was doing was we were you were bonding with her now. Now you even feel more like a partner. She's more like a partner supporting you on your journey, you feel empowered to explore a little bit more now.

Yeah, I mean, that's what that's literally what's going on. Now. I mean, she's giving me a little more responsibility into the weeds, where previously she would have to do all that work. But we then become more efficient this way. So even I feel empowered, right. But that's a faster thing. Because now I'm eliminating entire step of me putting in a Google Doc changes her looking at that and changing those things. I do it in the actual website, I do it myself, we eliminate a ton of time that way. So it was through her ability to give me greater skill that were faster. And I appreciate that, right? Because I understand I want changes made immediately if I see something wrong, I don't want to wait a day.

That's excellence. So we're actually you were going through these, these stages that you're discussing now. So we've created room for you to make mistakes that have high penalties, and allowing you to start to fix your own problems other than don't touch this. But that's in every movie. I mean, that was in the Garden of Eden don't touch this tree.

That's right. Yeah, give me room. Give me room to go go give me room to explore Eden. But this is the one thing don't do that. And then that was providing skill, right, Adam and Eve. They're like me, they're too curious. Yeah. But yeah, it's actually a great metaphor there. I like that. It's really nice.

All right, excellent. So here, I've got some, let's do our little question and answer. So we've got some questions. Alright, so what this is a test, we're gonna see how you do but ready. So what is psychological marketing?

That's easy. I can I'll put my what I believe psychological marketing is. So psychological marketing is a new way of marketing. It's only been around probably for the last couple of years as a science and what I see it as it's understanding the conscious factors of why people do what they do, but also the subconscious factors that behind the whys of what people do and why they do it. So when you bring these two different factors together, you can actually increase the marketing effectiveness of your marketing. So that's really awesome. ecological marketing is a new way of doing marketing. And it helps you increase your marketing effectiveness by talking to the non conscious and the conscious.

Boom. You know, I think it's so many things that psychological, you know, and, but we have to apply it in our marketing, but most of us don't know where to start. So I think reading your book really, really helped me. Alright, here's the next one ready, how to optimize digital marketing?

Yeah, I've been working in this space for quite a while now. And the best way to optimize your digital marketing is really just four steps. And not that every step is easy, but it only takes four steps. Step number one is you need to understand how to activate on people's goals, because people's goals focus their attention. So you need to be able to tell people in your marketing, how they will reach their goals, their aspirations, if they work with you. Secondly, you have to provide them with emotional fuel. So you have to integrate some sort of a motivation to help them keep reading to keep engaging. So that's some of the stuff we talked about today, we talked about competence today, there's also achievement, there's also empowerment, etc. Third thing you need to do is think about lowering resistance. And you can do that through something called approach or regulatory fit. So that's, you know, we all have resistance to marketing, you can actually lower that through your copy using Behavioral Sciences. And if you do those three things, you should be able to increase emotional arousal, or what we call a hot state. And if when you are in a hot state, you're more susceptible to influence because you're using emotions, for making your decisions. But that's not enough. Because in digital marketing, get lots people to engage with your marketing creative, they'll look at your YouTube ad, and then they'll go on to the next ad and never do anything. That's why you need to think about cognitive heuristics or a trigger, how do you put a trigger in there towards the bottom of your communication piece that gets people to take an action, whether it's sign up for this list, you know, click like, buy my product that's through these triggers, social proof, scarcity, effect, loss aversion. They're these triggers that can get people to make a very fast, quick and easy decision. And when you do though, all four of those things, you're much more likely to have really optimize more digital marketing.

Excellent. But here's the last question. We're getting asked a lot. So it seems obvious. But again, why do organizations invest in marketing research?

Yeah. The reason why organizations invest in marketing research is ultimately to build customer empathy. So if you don't understand your customers and empathize with your customers, you're less likely to make really strong decisions on their behalf. And if you're not making good decisions, and strong decisions that benefit your customers, and you're not speaking to your customers in a way that they know that you kind of get them because you empathize with their situation, you will never break out in in the world of marketing, you'll never break out your business, because we've talked about this for a while now, that human behavior relies on being human. And so when you empathize with your customer, you feel more human, as a company, you feel more human as a coach, and we tend to gravitate towards other humans, it's just in our nature. So you invest in marketing research, because you need greater empathy, it is the number one thing you can do to stand out of a crowd in a crowd. It's not an algorithm. It's not how creative you are, it is how well you know your customer, innately an empathetic level, and when you can identify with your customer in that way you are going to grow. You know, it's

huge. I think we, most of the small businesses struggle with, we're just taking a stab in the dark when we try to design some marketing in it. And we go, okay, we need to get this website done. I need to get this brochure done. Let's hurry and get it done. So we get back to real business. But there's a big competitive lift here, if you can settle in in and apply some of these insights.

Yeah, I think one of the things that we do too often is that we focus on ourselves, what can we provide our customers. And so we believe what we can provide our customers is how we should set up our positioning. It's how we should set up our products and services. It's how we should market by telling you all these great things we can do for you. That is not empathy that is not building empathy, or a business around empathy. What you shouldn't be doing I know it's very difficult to do, but you should be doing is finding a customer and their pain points empathizing with what they struggle with every single day. Then look at your business and create positioning around what how you can help them reach their aspirational goals, how you can empathize with them because you understand how you create products and services that help them go get closer to their, their, their their goals. Same thing with your messaging. So we oftentimes start as business owners with what we can provide you what you need to do is start with What does my customer need and I know that sounds small, but it is the number one most critical thing you could do to be successful in business today.

Alright, so in this mind state marketing blueprint that's in your book marketing the mind states, we have, we have all the meep, for me, give me a, I'm trying to wave this book, you guys need to get this book because it will change the way that you approach your marketing stuff. So you have a master mind state workshop. Now, tell us a little bit about that, please.

That's right. So we're now offering workshops where we take your business worked together every week for eight weeks together. And what you're going to do is if you sign up for these workshops, you work independently with wax, or you work with other students who are who are at the same issue. They're trying to optimize their business, to the nonconscious of their customers to emotionally engage with the customers. So over the course of eight weeks, we have different things. You have to read videos to watch activities for you to do. And all throughout the week, you're engaging with me through emails, things like that, until ultimately, on Thursday of every week, we meet as a class, and we talk about how far we've come answer questions, etc. But at the end of this eight weeks, you're going to have a greater empathy for your customers, we're going to do activities that help you understand your customers at a very deep level, you're going to reposition your firm if it needs repositioning. So you're tapping into the subconscious of your customers that drives like differentiation in the marketplace, we're going to tweak your products and services so that they are delivering on that core motivation and the desire that your customers have. And ultimately, we're going to teach you how to write and craft messaging, that taps into this nonconscious that taps into these customers desires and audit your messaging. So you could take this skill, and keep going back to it again and again and again. So it's an eight week course, lots of downloads, lots of videos, but you're going to learn we're going to build your skill in mind state marketing, so you can have much more effective business.

So it seems like just correct me if I'm wrong. If you sign up for this masterclass, you're actually obsessed with mastery.

I think you are probably obsessed with growing sales in your business and you're by becoming a better more skilled mind say marketer, you will differentiate your business out there and you will grow your sales,

you know, just hanging out with you will is going to make them a better marketer, that's for sure.

Yet another great episode of the mind state marketing hour, you got any last minute, wisdom knowledge, did a dad joke, a story? What do you got for us? You

always put me on the spot on these dad jokes. And yeah, I do not, I do not do not today. But next week, we're going to go in, we're going to tap into one more of these, I think maybe one or two more of these. So we're going to tap into that next week. And ultimately, you know, you'll be able to eventually have all 90 sessions that we'll talk about all 90s core desires. So if you watch the mind state marketing hour, and you can go backward in time, you can learn all about any one of these things.

Yeah, this guy so we've had some people going you know, they're wondering about Louis the second what's the deal? Why are you so why are you so anti Louis on this?

Now? I am not anti learning. It's so funny is I think it's because you're I have the wind on my computer. He has not come in here. Usually it comes in because he hears your voice. And he wasn't here. He made an appearance yesterday on one of my master classes. But he has not made his appearance today though. I'm sure he will later on so unfortunately guys, I'll take a video maybe I'll upload it.

Maybe you maybe should I think maybe Louise like one of the most popular. That couldn't be the reason why people are showing up

our mascot. Yeah, people want to see what's going on. And Louis Well, we could change the format then talking about what's going on with me. I could follow him around with with with a phone.

All right. Well, what are you excellent show today This has been the mainstay marketing hour will lead She's the author of marketing to mind states. It's a book on Amazon. You need to go get it today and learn more about his masterclass. You can go to mind state group com, go through the little things. Let us know how the user experience is let's get you signed up and get going on this because it's a big deal. being human is a competitive advantage. So succumb be human in the mind state marketing works shop. And that's another excellent show. Well, thank you so much.

You got to Thanks, everybody. See you next week.

All right. That's a wrap. Thanks for listening to another fun episode of the ROI online podcast. For more be sure to check out the show notes of this episode. And feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn where we can chat and I can help direct you to the resources you're searching for. To learn more about how you can grow your business better. Be sure to pick up your copy of my book, The Golden toilet add surprise that golden toilet.com I'm Steve Brown, and we'll see you next week on another fun episode of the ROI online podcast.