[Special Episode] The Mindstate Marketing Hour #9 with Will Leach - The ROI Online Podcast Ep. 59

Welcome to the ROI online podcast. And this is a special series of interviews with will Leach. He's the author of marketing to mind states the practical guide to applying behavior design to research and marketing. And I'm your host, Steve Brown, the author of the funniest book on marketing, the golden toilet, stop flushing your marketing budget into your website and build a system that grows your business. And then this series of conversations, we're going to explore everything about marketing, your messaging, and connecting with your clients, your customers, your employees. So come on, and join us and let's have some fun. or live whispering. Alright, just two dudes trying to run a live stream. That's right.

I'm just the town. I'm just with sitting back waiting for somebody to say smile. And I'm ready. Ready?

Smile? All right. Well, sheets. That's funny. We'll Welcome to the next episode. The mind state marketing, our

pleasure, my pleasure, good to be back with you

will Leach He's the author of a book that if you haven't read, you need to read some marketing to mind states the practical guide right there. The practical guide to applying behavior design to research and marketing, or as I say, how to use science to connect with your clients. So we'll today you were wanting to talk about the four insights needed to solve any business revenue challenge.

That's right, it comes from this, this place that I think a lot of people when they hear about behavioral design or marketing it all sometimes I think we lose track of the real purpose of all of this stuff. And ultimately, it's to drive revenues for a business, whether it's your own business, or it's somebody else's business. So what I want to do today was just kind of simplify things down to four different revenue challenges that you may, you may have, and some a way of looking at that challenge through a different lens through my lens, of course, to see if, if some of my model could help you influence or at least change those revenue challenges you have. And I have a couple examples on each one, or at least one example on each one.

He comes prepared, folks, that just gonna give you insight that you utilize this guy, not only does he have a good smile, but he's smart. He's not just good looking. He's got brains, number one to increase penetration or trial for new product goals direct to reconfirm purchase decisions in the moment.

That's right. So this is this is for all you guys out there that are just starting a company or you just launched a new product, or any launch a new website, whatever, and you're not getting the traction you want. And what the basis of why a lot of times we don't get the traction we want. And you know, it comes from marketing. And the issue is not that you have bad marketing. Oftentimes, the real issue is that man we've talked about this is that there's this cognitive filter that filters out 95% of all marketing good and bad. And because of that only, you know, let's just say one out of every 10 year marketing messages that are trying to drive this new innovation, this new website launch this new company launch, those messages are getting lost. They're not even being caught. People aren't even constantly aware, even if you're targeting correctly. And I did a workshop yesterday and we talked a little about this. And the real reason why messaging doesn't really connect or you're not even aware of it. Oftentimes that's not messaged to people's goals. And that's the first thing you have to do with a launch of any new product is make sure that people understand that this new launch this new product will help them reach their goals.

So what the heck's the goal? Yes. For those who haven't been spellbound by every episode Up to now,

yeah, a goal is nothing more than where you are today and the distance from that to where you want to be in the future. So we if you think about your goals, we have goals all the time, I want to save money, save time. Those are important goals. But the real important goals, the goals that get messaging across that filter, are your higher order goals. This is like who you want to be in the future. We call idealize goals and if you're not doing messaging to somebody desired experience to their desired end state their goal in the future, then you're not really able to break through the clutter.

Breaking through the clutter. Alright, so number two.

Number two. So when you want to get repeat purchases, so let's say for instance, you launch something out there, you're getting high trial, whether it's a product, people go to your website, but they're not coming back, it's an it's a new, it's a new, new entry into the marketplace, new chips or whatever people are coming for trial, and then they're not coming back. Oftentimes what that is, and there's a lot of reasons for that. I mean, you got to break through habits, we all know that, you know, has to be a great product, if you want repeat purchases has to be a great experience. That's all table stakes. In today's world, what you really need to think about is, are you driving the core motivation, that gets somebody to not just engage with your product, but to go ahead and repurchase. And that's all around my second part of my model, which are people's motivations. And to kind of help you help you out on this is that we all have motivations that fuel us to do a repeat purchase. In fact, motivations feel us to do any purchase in the first place, right? But particularly with repeat purchases, oftentimes what'll happen is, yep, somebody had a good experience, you help them meet their goals, right, Steve, but for whatever reason, um, the next time, they kind of wanted to engage, you came to mind, you know, hey, I should go that website again, or I should go try this, you know, service. Again, they weren't sufficiently motivated to take the next step, which was to act on that. And that's because the first initial creative that you've sent, or even subsequent marketing campaigns and marketing that you've sent out, is not tapping into that core motivation that they want to feel that core desire that they want to feel. And because of that, yeah, you you, you help them meet their goal, but they're just not desired, or they have no desire to engage with you even farther. So you have to figure out which one of these nine motivations are most important for your customers, and then re tap into that motivation to get them to try you again.

So right now, you've talked a lot about, there's like three basic motivations that are pretty much in play across most domains, right now. Yeah. So what what would those motivations be?

Yeah, just because of where we are in the in our culture today, because of biological threat, social injustice, economic chaos, political strife, right, there is an overlaying kind of motivations or three motivations that seemed to be coming up, regardless of what industry we're in. Those motivations are first security, and safety people right now, they're not sure about their jobs, they're not sure about kind of what's going to happen politically. So security, people desire to feel safe, especially as it's going to continue, as unemployment kind of hovers around where it's at right now. And there's just like, a lot of, you know, if you're in the airline industry, now you're feeling not very safe about your job. That's just, that's just where we are. So safety is the first motivation, that is really important to start talking about with your products. Second one is empowerment. And what empowerment is, is that people and people who desire empowerment with desire control, and so right now, we don't feel like we have a lot of control over our lives. You know, we don't know whether or not we're gonna have to teach our kids at home, or if we're going to be able to send them to school, we're not sure how we're going to make that we're not sure how we're going to make our bills, right, and pay our bills, things like that. So right now, people don't feel like they have a lot of control in their lives, we're being told where we can go when we can go all throughout our society. So control is the second motivation that you should be talking about, because control will get somebody if you remind them that you help them with control, you're more likely to get that repeat purchase. And then the third one is we call it engagement. But really what that is, is people desire either moments of levity, like excitement, or kind of a moment of decompression. And so what's interesting is what's happening right now is with all the strife with all the stress that we have in our lives. People now just need moments every day of release, like just and we've even done research we have we have lots of videos of you know, stay at home moms who are trying to teach their children at home and they're trying to run their careers as well. And they're literally hiding in their own closet to cry because they just need a moment. And and those moments are really, really special. hackable if you can connect your brand to this desire of just as we call it engagement, but it's usually a moment of release or excitement, like on a Friday night, watching Netflix is really exciting for people because they get a moment of release a moment of kind of captivation. So that's the third one. So if you can give people a feeling that you will help keep them safe, you will help keep them in control. And or you can get a moment of release that is most likely to get somebody to repeat on a purchase. So let me give me an example of how this recently came to life. We have a client, who was manufacturing mosquito control units, internationally. And what happens they did a product launch and the initial product launch went okay, in that the hurdles that was supposed to met. So imagine a device that plugs into a wall. And you know, let's talk about Brazil or India or China, high humid climates, big mosquito issues. So people, you know, homes don't have great seals, right? So mosquitoes are an issue. Well, yeah, you can drape netting across your bed. But also, you know what happens during the day when mosquitoes are still there, this company came up with a pluggable unit. And he did a lot of research that was talking about how people want to have lots of variables, they want to be able to set a timer, they want to be able to set out the scent of the spray. Because this imagine this mosquito control unit just it sends out a mist, it's killing mosquitoes. So every time they go to research, they created a product that had another lever, another variable and another kind of like a twisty dial so they can optimize this experience. And you would think this is perfect. However, repeat sales, boom, they're dropping, they're dropping, dropping, they say what's going on, like it was working well before so people aren't going back? Well, we did a very quick study in today's world. For this customer in Brazil, you know, in China, in India, we found that safety has now overridden the desire for having all these variables. And so imagine this, what somebody said a year ago is give me the ability to kind of adjust my settings set timer set the sense that how much spray comes out highly desirable. In today's world, especially with this group, every single ability to adjust this, this, the sensors could actually make the whole unit malfunction. That's what they believe. So what they are saying is like, I don't want to have all these Justice justments It's too complex, I need to work or not work on or off. And so really, by scaling down the innovation state, by talking about how this is a very reliable, it's going to say it's going to protect your children from mosquitoes, all of a sudden rebound sales are happening, why it's a simpler message. And it's to where every time that you know, otherwise people felt, you know, customers felt like that having all these different variables actually could hurt their safety because it can break down the machine, you took away options. And so in this case, actually increasing repeat sales people are going back in for a second unit and a third unit for their home. So it's a good example now of how you can use a motivation and messaging to a slightly different motivation. In this case, they went from control to safety, and it made all the difference.

That's interesting. Safety comes from simplicity. So number three,

yep. Number three is all about if you are in a situation, where maybe you're a retail store and or you have a website, you're selling things is all this is about repeat, I'm sorry, on building trips, and building the basket. So getting somebody to go to your website, or go to your retail establishment more often. And when they're in there, how do you get them to buy more so in my world, we look at the world of increasing trips, or increasing basket ring, you know the number of items in a cart, we look at that world through framing. And so what the what the literature tells you is that what you try to do on any website, you know this, right, it's lower friction, lower decision, friction. Anytime there's a point of friction, it causes somebody to go You know what, I've got one item, I'm good to go, or Hey, I'm trying to get to the website can't remember how to get to this website can remember when going to that when I'm going to the retail store I got in there I got confused on where what part of the store, I kind of made my wife has done this many times. She'll make the obligatory because you know, she's been seeing she'll make the road the route around the perimeter of the store and walk out because she's confused and she's like, it's not worth it right. So there was friction. The way to eliminate friction is through its idea of framing. And what you do, it's a simple thing. What you do is you frame up your website, your marketing communications in one of two ways. One way is about how you're going to help them maximize gains maximize good thoughts, good feelings, you're going to maximize your chances of reaching your goal. Or you go around and help through your marketing communications, talk about how you're going to help them, minimize loss, minimize bad things. And so when you message in the right way, whether it's what we call the optimistic approach, which is about maximizing gains, or the cautious approach, which is about minimizing losses, you can actually lower friction. So I got an example for you. We worked with a global beverage manufacturer. And this idea, this idea of friction came out from a coupon booklet that they sent out to 40 million households in the US. In this coupon booklet, they had a page in the booklet for new innovations. And as they're trying to drive these new innovations, it's the normal coupon that you'd expect by this save $1 buy this save $1 buy this save $1. So the word save was it sounds like very rational, very kind of what you would normally do with a coupon is save. But did you know that every time you say the word save, you are actually activate your framing of your offer as a way of minimizing loss, which that may be okay, except if it's an innovation, if it's something that's new to the world, you want somebody to be much more excited around this idea of trying to maximize gains. So it's rather than saying the word Sayed a simple tweak a simple tweak, we did we did we use the exact same coupon the exact same offer. But rather than saying save $1, we said, Get $1 off the word get moving from the word save to the word get. That's all we did, Steve, we increased coupon redemption by 200%. Just because we lowered this friction. And I know it sounds I remember going through the legal staff and legal staff at this company was not feeling this whole thing they didn't they didn't Why are we doing this? Why are we changing it. And I talked about the behavioral psychology just by lowering that psychological friction of if I want you to try a new product, I need to tell you how this new product is going to maximize your game maximize your experience versus saving you time and money, you can see that you know we increased like I said their coupon redemption by over 200%. So that's just a simple example of lowering cognitive friction or just lowering friction in your messaging can make a really dramatic result.

So number four, to increase impulse purchases and upsells fingers, triggers are hot states,

odd states, so impulsivity. I know a lot of us imagine the restaurant owner that wants you to buy the dessert. This is when you get to the front of you know, you're in the checkout of your website and all of a sudden one more item or one more offer or whatever. And this is getting basically somebody to upsell, you can use it for upsells. But also getting that incremental purchase. So what we find and there's a lot of work around impulsivity. And what impulsivity really is, if you want to get somebody to buy try or try something that they never tried before. And and but they're on the fence, right? You they've been engaged, they're on your website for a while or they're in your store for a while. And they you they can enter their interaction with your with your with your products, but then they decide to not buy. So you had them you had the right goal, you had the right motivation. But something didn't push them over the hurdle. That's impulsivity. And this is what you do to drive impulsivity. You use what's called a trigger. In my book marketing mindsets, I talk about 21 of these triggers, right? Um, and these triggers just make decision making easier. And imagine somebody wants to buy, they're interactive, they're holding your package, right? They're looking at the back, they're kind of you can just tell they're there, but then they're not closing the sale, you're not able to close the sale. All it really needs is you have to make that decision easier for them. So this just happened to me last night. And if that's why it's like oh, it's a trigger this this gave me maybe buy something impulsively. So this weekend in college, the College Station, Texas Tech sane Emma's place playing my Florida Gators, and Florida and right now is ranked number three football team. Texas a&m is around 23 depends on what the poll is. I graduated from both universities. I did my undergrad at university Florida Go Gators, and I did my masters at Texas a&m University. So I really want to go this game but frankly, there's a hurricane coming up from the south, right. So it's not I mean, I'm interested in the game but I got to I got to worry about About this hurricane, I don't know where it's going to be, I don't know if they're going to cancel the game. And frankly, the prices of tickets are slightly high, right? It's a number three team in the nation versus another ranked team. But there's not many opportunities to see both my alumni schools at the same time. So I'm motivated. So I checked out ticket prices last night, just to see. So this game is only happening, but two days from now, less than less than 48 hours, in fact. So I'm sitting there and I'm just checking out the ticket price. I'm getting excited. But I sat there Steve, you know, you know, you do it, you know, Ticketmaster, you go to the you go to see, and you look at that seat, you look at the view, and you look at the other view, you look at the other view. So here's what I did. I actually looked at when the views I started to get, you know what, I don't know if this is the right time, I love it. But I can go, it's gonna be a three and a half hour drive up three and a half hour drive back, I've got to convince my kid to go with me who you know, I really want him to experience this thing. I started downplaying. So I just was kind of scrolling to get out of the website, and boom, a pop up hit me, the pop up was only two tickets left at this price. And it's actually a pretty decent price. And that only two, I bought the tickets, like I just looked at my wife and I said, Do you mind if I go, you just go Just go. And I did it. Right? That concept that trigger only to left is something we call scarcity effect in the book marketing two mindsets, they created a feeling of scarcity that caused me to do an impulse purchase. Yes, I was looking at it. But I was moving away that one little trigger got Ticketmaster, and whoever sold those tickets, you know, an additional $250 last night that I was walking away. So that's an example of how you can just a small example of how these triggers if you incorporate these triggers into your experience into your into your email campaign into your, into your videos, whatever, creating a scarcity can increase sales, impulse sales.

So that's, that's excellent. There's a lot of organizations to have all this kind of weaponized and really dialed in and, and perfect. So give us some ideas for people that might have to figure this out and do it on their own without the help of an army of marketers to pull this off. So tell us like, what example would you like to use to demonstrate how to apply these three things? Yeah. So let me let's

go through one that I just did, yes, I can't give you the company names. But I was in a workshop. And we were in this workshop, I do these workshops every month. And I was helping a creative director at an agency, she was going to send out emails for next week's amazon prime days, it's a very big day, I'm sure lots of people out there are prepping for Amazon Prime. And so she is working with a client that's in the skincare high high end skincare. And she wants people to the email campaign is being sent out to women in their you know, they're targeting women in their 40s, maybe 50s, who really want to, you know, defy aging have a high quality skincare product. These people are this, this target has high disposable income. She know where I'm going. So on this email campaign, we looked at it through this lens through these through these factors. And the first thing we did was we said, okay, let's first talk about your target. Let's talk about this 40 to 50 year old woman high disposable income, what are her functional goals? So imagine this is trial, right? This is a relatively new company. I think it just started in February, but she told me so a lot of people haven't heard. So let's go back to that first thing was we have to increase trial. And she's going to use this email address, or I'm sorry, this email to increase trial. So we I went through an activity asked her what are the goals of this customer? She said, Well, she's trying to fight aging, she wants high quality products. That's That's great. problem with that is every company every high end, you know, skincare company is going to talk about we have high quality, all natural, I'm sure they're gonna have all those types of things. So what I did was I asked her, tell me why those things are important. And so the creative director said Well, it's because she wants to look youthful. Okay, great. Why is that important? And just by making her go through that, and she's thought for a couple seconds even she said, Well, it's because and she had a tagline that was in the back of her head. But she's like looking back at this tagline. I think this is that higher order goal. And she said because if you look better, you feel better and you'll do great things. And I'm like that's it that hierarchy goal. You if you look better, you feel better. You do great things. That's what the lady from you know, 40 and 50 year old ladies want she wants to do great things not and she just uses so happens to use some skincare products to help do that. That is a very simple way of how Helping drive penetration because imagine if she's going to get four emails from four different skincare companies next week, and she will, she will. So what's going to happen they're going to talk about, we're all natural, they're gonna talk about, well, we've been designed from people in Switzerland, they're all going to come up with these very rational things. Very few. We'll talk about how we can help you do great things. And that's that first stage of going through that filter. Does that make sense? Mm hmm. I

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So as I was reading this email, Now, granted, she had only written this, she'd written this email up because she's trying to crank out emails, right. And so she used the workshop. And she looked at it after she looked at after the workshop, this is the very end of our workshop is when we go through these experiences, we look at emails together and things and she said, You know, I was focused before on autonomy and autonomy is that as a motivation, that's about being unique and being an individual. However, when we got to talking about it, we started talking about this idea of control. And remember, we're talking about the three, the three motivations we just talked about. One of them is control, this desire to be able to influence and have control over our experience control over our environments. And the more you start talking about, well, if her higher order goal is to do great things look good, feel good, do great things. Now all of a sudden, we looked at that email saying that autonomy and being unique doesn't help you make do good things. It's not horrible. But really what would would be control? So you start out how do you now frame up? Or how do we how do we use the motivation around control and providing control over your skincare regimen, how that could help you do great things. So that was that was kind of where we let let her into this idea of bringing back somebody who may be a lapse purchase, or they see the email they may not buy. But there's something about that motivation, something about that fuel about if this skincare can help me kind of control the aging process. So the way we framed it, right control the aging process, to where now that makes her want to reengage and kind of go over any kind of hurdle to go back to that email. Hopefully we're back to that website.

And then how did you apply triggers to increase impulsivity?

Yeah, in this case, she did everything right. She knew that in this case. Oh, I'm sorry, of triggers. I take it back. I was gonna go let me go to approach first let me get to that. And then the trigger is actually did an amazing job on the trigger on the approach the way she wrote the copy was dead on.

So let me stop you. Help us understand. approach?

Yes, sorry. That approach is where you either gonna tell somebody in your copy, you're going to help them maximize good things, or you're going to help them eliminate bad things. So just how you frame up so skincare, let's just let's just do skincare could be, we're going to help you look younger, that's a good thing, or we're going to help you not look old. That's a bad thing, same skincare product. She intuitively knew and i and i agree with her after talking us through that the better way is saying we're going to help you look young As opposed to, you know, help you not look old. And it's not that it's, you know, positive versus negative. Because sometimes it's really important to talk about how you're going to eliminate a bad thing from possibly happening. In this case, hiring skincare. Talking about how this game care product helps you keep your youthful feet figure, you know, your features, helps helps revitalize your skin, those types of maximizing good things made natural sense. So she was already doing that. Anyway, I said, just keep doing in that style. Keep talking about the good things that'll happen. And then the last one now is that trigger and this is that what we're trying to solve for was somebody who's gonna be on this website, it's gonna it's expensive skincare product. This isn't for somebody who's 18 years old and getting Clearasil, right, this is high end stuff it she told me that an actual doctor designed a dermatologist designed the actual ingredients. So this is like, Okay, so this, this target this 40 year old 50 year old lady is getting, she's going to get a bunch of emails, like we all are going to get next week about a brand new amazon prime. But rather than go to Amazon buy from my website, we're all going to be inundated next week. And so she just did very classic triggers. She said, This deal is limited to only the two days a prime. So she created scarcity, just by saying this deal is a limited deal. And she actually used that trigger, save. Or she actually used um, she actually used in her trigger language, Save to save the most, I think I've saved the most on these two days, which I loved how she was like, okay, she's trying to talk about the maximizing of savings only on these two days. And I think she had something in addition to what she did a bundle offer Steve, she was an additional 10%. If you buy something else, which is just a basic, it's a basic form of a simple bundle. And, and that I thought after I looked at that, I thought that was great. She did. I mean, she did a great trigger to get somebody who's maybe you know what, I'm on the fence. But I'm going to save an extra $10 if I bundle and this only available for two days. So hopefully it's going to go and we just tweaked her language a little bit on the fly. She left the workshop, she told me she's going to let me know in about about a week how that worked. But she was feeling really good about it just because we use some really basic behavioral psychology to integrate that into an email. And hopefully, we're gonna see some great results. So one of the folks watching she D. Robinson is watching. She had a question. What are some other book recommendations that the folks that are listening should consider to kind of start to really dial in all of this? Yeah, great question. So, um, I would love to tell you my book, and my book is awesome. I love my book. But there is a great book. Actually, I have all my books right here, because I keep them all here. Here it is. So the first book is a book called focus. Remember, we're talking about this from Tory Higgins. And this is that book that I told you about? How do you write your messaging? Are you going to show them that you can get more gains or less loss? This book will tell you how to do all that. Now I summarize this entire book in chapter five of my book. And I go a little bit deeper on on a couple of things on messaging, but focus is a really good book. The second one I tell all my students who are brand new to this industry, go to the work or go to the book from Dan Ariely called predictably irrational. It's a landmark book in our in our in our industry, it's been around for a decade, that book changed my life. Because up until then, I was an economist. And so I I was taught that decisions are based upon pros and cons cost benefit analyses. And there was no emotion like I never learned that emotion drives decisions. That's the world I came from that book and I hear about this book all the time Thinking Fast and Slow. Dan Ariely, he's a, he's over at Duke University. He's kind of he's popularized behavioral economics, that book will change your life because it sets the principles down for why it's so importantly, it's so so important to understand the non conscious, so we're predictably irrational, the non conscious irrational mind that makes decisions very, very quick, but we have predictable strategies to get there. So it's a great book to start. So either one of those two books would be great.

Fast and Slow,

yes or no, not thinking fast and slow. I think that's a great seminal book. The problem is the which one is too deep.

So I'm sorry, I missed them.

Yeah. It's focus from Tory Higgins.

And

predictably irrational.

Okay,

sorry painter. Really?

Yeah. Getting that I'm pulling it up so that people can Yeah, see the titles here?

Yeah, ah, I was looking at your stack here. I've got a whole bunch of my books. I may have that one on my Kindle. I love it. It's a great book. It's an incredible book.

Alright, and so now I'm getting these on here. Sorry. Thinking and typing. That's like drinking and driving.

Nobody does it well, but we all think we can. Yeah.

So what's what's a great question that someone should ask right now and those that here we go, we got a little comment popping up. So what's a great question that we need to ask at this moment? Where should we go next with this conversation?

Yeah, you know, I like to always, I like to start off at the basics. Because the science is really new, it's still new, it's only been around for the better part of 30 years and only popularized in the last 10 years. So a lot of people, I think it's really important. The first question is starting at the basics, and the basics of any behaviorally designed piece of creative you know, this the creative that gets people to listen, Kerouac, they can go through this, this filtering system and break through, you have to, you have to understand those four factors. Now, I just put those four factors that we talked about people's goals, what motivates them to reach their goals, their approach, and then these triggers, these frames, and then these triggers. Those are the basics of all product innovation, all marketing. Why? Because it's human nature, it helps us explain why people do what they do. So the first question, I think everybody should go out there and try to answer our what is their customer's goals? What motivates them to reach their goals? How do they frame their goals? Are they trying to, you know, do they want more good or less bad? And then lastly, a couple of these triggers in the book tells you like, step by step how to get to those answers, frankly. So that would be that would be the kind of the question I would always ask and it'd be in that order, I would always want to understand the goals.

So just give us a little we've talked about this, but give us just a little Crash Course maybe in a couple of several sentences, how do we reveal these things that you're telling us to find out? Is it like this big science experience? And we have to do all this stuff? Or is it just a simple way that we can actually reveal these things?

It's the simplest thing in the world. I just taught this in the last two days. Because what I want to do is all this behavioral science, if you read all these books, it gets too complex, right? If you want to understand somebody's goals, I literally have the questions in my book, at the back of the chapter, but the what you should be doing is saying, either asking your customers, or just getting out a sheet of paper and writing the answer to this, what do your customers ask for? That's a simple thing. Like when they are at your store, when they are, when they're thinking about your category? What are they asking for? Or you just ask, what can I help you with? when people tell you what they were looking for? They're telling you their functional goals. Mm hmm. Important thing to do. But remember, that's not the most important thing. You have to ladder this The second question, and if you just ask the second question, you're gonna be in a much better place. Once you write down all those functional goals, maybe there's three, maybe there's four, then say, Why are those important to you? Why are those important? And when people talk about why something's important to them, they get a motive they start to they get kind of excited, they start thinking about their aspirational sales, they think about who they want to be in the future. I want I want to look good to feel good to do great things. Looking good as a functional goal. What are you looking for a skincare product? Why? Oh, I want to look good, right? Okay, getting to that do great things. All you have to do is ask why is that important? Why is looking good in her mind? She was like because if you look good, you feel more confident when you feel more confident you can do great things. That's it. Two questions. What do you want? And why do you want it? Why is that important to you?

Hmm. Yeah, the trap is that like when people come in and talk to us say, hey, I need this. I need this obvious functional thing. Okay, but why do you really want that is the hard it's a little harder you can get there but if you just stop Okay, I can give that to you. No problem. You're missing the real problem. Yeah, yes.

But you know, it's funny when you bring up a good point, Steve is because some people sometimes we ask why is that important to you? Some people don't really know like they've never thought it through. I mean, it's there in their subconscious but they don't really think it through. Here's a trick. I've never told anybody this I don't think so. This is this is I guess I've told my team how to do this. I've never told us on a live on a show before. The trick. If somebody is struggling, they're struggling about why isn't working To them do this, ask them and this is kind of a little esoteric, but it may it may take this creativity actually gets up people to think in a different way. Ask them that what types of people would find value in this, you know, these goals you have what types of people find value in that Why? When people have to explain the behaviors or describe another person, they their point of reference is themselves. It's a really interesting what's called projective. It's being it's as a projective research technique, you can project your behaviors and your thoughts and feelings when you explain how somebody else not you of course, with somebody else, it helps people to explain their own latent needs or you know, their own their own inner need. So, that is a that is a good one. The second one, the second one that comes to mind is we do this sometimes we say, how would what would you explain if Superman or if an alien, you know, whatever, an alien, Superman, Santa Claus, some mythical thing comes down and asks you to describe why it's important for you to buy this product, what would it be? And again, when you tell it, it's a projective technique when you're trying to think of Santa Claus, and you're trying to come up with reasons why Santa Claus should think that skincare is great, they will, there's no point of reference outside of what they believe.

So we got to think of an alien to get to this. That's the secret to

that is I'm sorry, but that in my book, we talk about those things where sometimes it is hard to get people going out. And the hardest people I'm gonna tell you are Italian surgeons. They're the most difficult people to try to figure out their higher order goals. That's the hardest researcher I've research I've ever done. So we had to go to the Santa Claus thing. We had to get all these different things because read Italian surgeons are very, very methodical, very functional, and what they're doing so. So that's where we came up with the Superman and the Santa Claus projective technique.

So let's do a role play. So

Steve, okay,

ask asked me. Let's go. Let's work to this.

So So hey, Steve. Um, so I know that you're really looking for a great tasting snack, like what's important to you?

Yeah, I want something that's not going to make me feel bad. But I mean, it'll, it'll be tasty. And I won't feel like I'm like, just ruining my dinner.

Yeah, why? Why would Why are those things important? You versus other things?

Well, I'm trying to have I'm trying to eat better, you know, I'm not getting any younger. I'm like, you I stopped buying shampoo A long time ago. And, and there's other things that are starting to, you know, not work like they used to. And so I'm trying to pay attention to this.

Yep. And so if you're paying attention to this, and you're trying to eat healthier, and you know, buy kind of higher quality products, like what's that gonna help you do? Why is that important to you?

Well, it's gonna, I think it's going to help comp, it's going to help me feel better about myself then that at least I'm having a win in certain areas, when, you know, as as we age, wins become more and more important, don't think

they do. And seen wins become more and more important. And now if I know that about you, if I know that you're about winning, and these small wins, can help you get to this place that you say I can now start messaging to, did you know that we all know that small wins matter in life at our age, eating healthy helps you get these small wins, you see a totally different place of messaging to just ask you two questions, basically.

That's, that's, um, I was just going, but that's cool. How you did that.

You do that enough times enough customers, you're going to find themes, you're gonna find things. And when you find that, that theme that cuts across multiple customers, that's what you need to start messaging to that that's the idealized self small wins make me the person I want to be. That's the big message that you should your brand should stand for. And how do you do that brand? I do that through great tasting snacks that are healthy, that don't hurt me. That's it. And you have a totally different way of messaging that will break through that filter that we've always been talking about that filters out 95% of all messaging.

So there's folks that are listening to this, even though I messed up on our Facebook group page. I set the timer on but there's still we got great things coming in here. People want to maybe get involved with you or kind of learn how to do these things get you to teach them what's what's the process.

Yeah. So there's a couple of things you can do. If you go to mind, state group Comm. You can actually just get the book and the book is a great book. It's a tool that if you just kind of do it yourself golfer and you want to know the basic mechanics of how do you message to these mind states to, like I said, My whole goal is to drive design messaging that gets people to listen, Karen act, and these behavioral science tools will help you. Some people, though, are like, I want to take it to the next level. And then we do these monthly workshops, these monthly workshops, like I just did last two days, we bring people in from all over the world. And we go through a two day, really easy series of series of activities, just like what you and I did, actually, where we teach you the model. But we throughout the entire two days, Steve, we go through a case study called wicked crisp. So that's why I kept using my chip example, because I was talking about wicked crisps all the last two days. But this case study is really about showing you the research questions I asked, then from there, how do I drive these mind states? What are the what are the goals of this, millennial mom, whatever motivations, etc. So we go through two days, then we show you how to identify the mind state, all the way down to here's now how we created the logo, the name of a company, the packaging the website, so we take it from I know it's important, understand this subconscious, all the way to the marketing that now wicked crisps is one of the fastest growing snack companies in the world. And then the third thing we could do, you may say, this is awesome, I got the book. Now I've taken this this online training course it's all it's all virtual. But that's not tell me about my company, that's when we do something very individual for you. So we'll look at your data, we'll go through the your data together. Or if you need me to create your data, you need to ask your customers these questions, we do that work, then we come back together and say, we're not talking about wicked, Chris, let's talk about you. Let's talk about your customer. And the exact same process here. their goals, their motivations, their their approach, here are their triggers. Here's their mind state. Now we'll look at your marketing together. And we'll go through this whole marketing, we'll just like well, maybe she tweaked this visual based on what we know, we should now frame up your brand, slightly different. So those are basically the three options that you can work with us to optimize your messaging.

Yeah, such a struggle, you hear a marketing director and your boss comes in, and he's jacked up about whatever he or she wants you to, to initiate this and then puts it in your lap. And you're like, wow, what do I do with this, and what if I fail and, and I've tried this, and then they're gonna push back, this is such a great way to kind of come and get some outside input, but actually land upon some things that really move the needle.

Yeah. And it's building capability for you. I mean, that's ultimately the goal is that you can bring this on yourself, you can teach your team to do this, so that it's a new capability to your organization. And that's ultimately what we want to do. If we were in a, if we're going to change the industry, and do much better marketing, it's got to come from inside companies, it can't come from one company. So it's about building a capability in your organization.

Alright, so let's review right quick. So the four insights needed to solve any business revenue challenge number one,

you must understand somebody's higher order goals.

Number two,

you must understand what motivates them to go after their goals. The book has nine motivations, just select one of them. Number three, you have to frame your business as either helping them maximize good things in their life, or you have to frame your business as minimizing bad things in their life. If you get that perfect, you lower friction.

And then number four

is short trigger by now hundreds of people have chosen us so should you the small triggers, we have 21. In our book, incorporate any of those triggers into an email onto your website, you create impulsivity, love it. So

my little takeaways. 60 comes from simplicity. framing eliminates friction, using triggers to drive impulsivity. I liked what you said here, how to get people to listen, care. And act is way harder than it sounds, but it's so impactful in such a competitive advantage. And then that exercise, what are you wanting? And why are you wanting that? Will each what the time spent with you is valuable. And I really am grateful for your knowledge. Imagine how many people you're helping really kind of get over this big hurdle in their business.

I hope so. That's that's I mean, especially after the economy we're in right now getting as many people to do better marketing to sell their great products and services. That's what we need. So I hopefully I can help.

Just because you decided to write a book to help us the scary thing, science but how to get actionable insights out of science. to really connect better with our clients love that will Leach. We'll be back next week. We're not going to be back. Are we? Are you you got some? Yes, we are. No, you're good. By the look on his face, folks. We're going to be back live.

But it's Wednesday. It'll be Wednesday, not Thursday.

It's going to be on Wednesday. So Hey, folks, thanks for contributing, putting your comments and be sure to let us know what topics you're interested in. Maybe you listen to wills book or read his book, actually, will you need to read the audible version of the book?

I know you keep telling me that every week you're I got to do I got a job.

So coming soon, folks. So thanks for listening. We'll be looking forward to next week with the best 45 minutes that you're going to invest all week with will Leach. Thank you guys. Alright, and that's a wrap. Thanks for listening to another fun episode of the ROI online podcast. For more, be sure to check out the show notes of this episode. And feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn where we can chat, and I can help direct you to the resources you're searching for. To learn more about how you can grow your business better. Be sure to pick up your copy of my book, The Golden toilet at surprise, that golden toilet.com I'm Steve Brown, and we'll see you next week on another fun episode of the ROI online podcast.